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SR009 / WES / BHSE / LL hit the mainstream - Page 32

post #466 of 594
Quote:
Originally Posted by gilency View Post

Professional reviewers get paid to say good things, not bad comments. 

I wouldn't trust them any more than a used car salesman..

(no offense to headfiers who sell used cars :)

PS Tyll, OTOH really knows what he is talking about. 

 

so far, I think Tyll is the only person or publication in the world to have done a side-by-side review of more than 2 electrostatic headphone amps.  The other ones, to my knowledge, did not have more than 1 amp in possession at a time.

HeadAmp Audio Electronics - home of the Pico and Gilmore amps.  Now with Audeze, Fostex, HiFiMAN, Sennheiser, and STAX.
Find us at www.HeadAmp.com

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post #467 of 594
Thread Starter 

It wasn't just reviewers who had nice things to say about the WES... some headfiers have liked it too. And I don't think that Tyll was paid to point out the positive things about the WES - I think he was just trying to be balanced and keep things in perspective (a bit like I am here). 

 

Surge74, don't let Spritzer's "robust" statements on certain matters get to you. He does it all the time, but its OK because we love him anyway. It's just how it is.

 

It's been said before, but how anyone reacts to a particular component's strengths and weaknesses depends on many factors, including the type of music you enjoy. I haven't heard the WES myself, but it's probably great for classical and jazz etc, and not so great for fast rock at high volumes. And you may be able to tweak that to a certain extent, but you probably won't be able to change it's fundamental sound signature without a major redesign - which is my interpretation of what Spritzer is saying.


Edited by TheAttorney - 3/1/13 at 11:46pm
post #468 of 594
Quote:
Originally Posted by justin w. View Post

 

so far, I think Tyll is the only person or publication in the world to have done a side-by-side review of more than 2 electrostatic headphone amps.  The other ones, to my knowledge, did not have more than 1 amp in possession at a time.

 

Well Tyll did say the WES is best for acoustic chamber and jazz.  This is almost the opposite of what AV Guide found most appealing... so I have no clue what to believe.  Either there was variability in the WES, tubes, or the reviewers' ears.

post #469 of 594

Weak sauce indeed.

Surge74 knows only of his WES.

post #470 of 594
Makes sense Attorney, thanks for explaining.
post #471 of 594
Quote:
Originally Posted by Surge74 View Post

I find it comical and somewhat juvenile how some people exaggerate the differences.  When in reality professional reviewers claim that there really aren't big differences and that the WES is superior in some ways:

 

 

 

Just relax and enjoy your amp.  Your rather transparent attempt to seek validation here will not end well. 

post #472 of 594

Perhaps it is time to discuss what's exactly wrong with the WES?  Let's start with the PSU, as with every other Woo tube PSU it is fundamentally broken and puts too much stress on the parts.  The easiest way to verify this is by swapping out the rectifier tubes, if you can hear any difference then something is wrong as there should be no change.  Now all tubes aren't built exactly the same so some handle the stress better (exceed the minimum spec) so they will "sound better".  Needless to say this is a far cry from the T2DIY/KGSSHV tracking PSU's in terms of performance and even a simple regulated PSU improves on this. 

 

Now for the amp, at it's core it's just a badly modified GES, same basic setup but they somehow just utterly mess it up.  There are some good ideas in there but they are all badly executed.  The main offender is the quad mono nature of the amp.  Using chokes to load the output stage is a good idea to boost the voltage swing (they can swing above the B++) but they have to be specially constructed for this role so push-pull on the same coil.  The WES uses four single ended chokes and that will never work right.  A CCS such as the BHSE has would be a wast improvement or even just plate resistors.  I did just that in my version but I was very much handicapped by space in a tiny box. 

 

The second issue is tube choice or rather how they are used.  The only option in an octal base for this role is the 6SL7 (mu of 60) so I can't fault that but using them as one AC coupled grounded cathode after another is not a good idea.  There is not enough gain over all in the circuit and they didn't even try to incorporate a diff amp at the input to compensate for this.  Compare the WES side by side against the ESX which is fully balanced from input to output (only one capacitor in the signal path) and the difference is startling.  Same tubes used in both amps but the ESX is uses a lot less parts and is fully adjustable so it can be dialed in perfectly.  My own take on the WES mixes this two amp circuits up in a blender but that was done for one simple reason, to allow WES owners to fix their amps and get something better out of the investment without spending more. 

 

The end result is a mess of THD and other ailments with very limited voltage swing and power.  Those reviewers were also half deaf if they didn't pick up on that or more likely, had no experience with electrostatics.  When Tyll was working on his review he contacted me and some others and I gave him pointers on how I compare amps and stress test them to reveal the issues.  Electrostatics are a bit different in this regard so there are different things to look for rather than with dynamic amps. 

post #473 of 594

I only want to listen to audio equipment, which is why I haven't tried to learn about the technical side of it , but I do take note of someone I believe does. That's the main reason I have the BHSE.

post #474 of 594
Quote:
Originally Posted by spritzer View Post

Perhaps it is time to discuss what's exactly wrong with the WES?  Let's start with the PSU, as with every other Woo tube PSU it is fundamentally broken and puts too much stress on the parts.  The easiest way to verify this is by swapping out the rectifier tubes, if you can hear any difference then something is wrong as there should be no change.  Now all tubes aren't built exactly the same so some handle the stress better (exceed the minimum spec) so they will "sound better".  Needless to say this is a far cry from the T2DIY/KGSSHV tracking PSU's in terms of performance and even a simple regulated PSU improves on this. 

 

Now for the amp, at it's core it's just a badly modified GES, same basic setup but they somehow just utterly mess it up.  There are some good ideas in there but they are all badly executed.  The main offender is the quad mono nature of the amp.  Using chokes to load the output stage is a good idea to boost the voltage swing (they can swing above the B++) but they have to be specially constructed for this role so push-pull on the same coil.  The WES uses four single ended chokes and that will never work right.  A CCS such as the BHSE has would be a wast improvement or even just plate resistors.  I did just that in my version but I was very much handicapped by space in a tiny box. 

 

The second issue is tube choice or rather how they are used.  The only option in an octal base for this role is the 6SL7 (mu of 60) so I can't fault that but using them as one AC coupled grounded cathode after another is not a good idea.  There is not enough gain over all in the circuit and they didn't even try to incorporate a diff amp at the input to compensate for this.  Compare the WES side by side against the ESX which is fully balanced from input to output (only one capacitor in the signal path) and the difference is startling.  Same tubes used in both amps but the ESX is uses a lot less parts and is fully adjustable so it can be dialed in perfectly.  My own take on the WES mixes this two amp circuits up in a blender but that was done for one simple reason, to allow WES owners to fix their amps and get something better out of the investment without spending more. 

 

The end result is a mess of THD and other ailments with very limited voltage swing and power.  Those reviewers were also half deaf if they didn't pick up on that or more likely, had no experience with electrostatics.  When Tyll was working on his review he contacted me and some others and I gave him pointers on how I compare amps and stress test them to reveal the issues.  Electrostatics are a bit different in this regard so there are different things to look for rather than with dynamic amps. 

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by David1961 View Post

I only want to listen to audio equipment, which is why I haven't tried to learn about the technical side of it , but I do take note of someone I believe does. That's the main reason I have the BHSE.


This is why I think Head Fi is so indispensable in some ways. I have read very few professional reviews that I agreed with after I tried the gear myself. I think the problems are at best 1) disregard of other gear in signal path (like Asr suggested) and at worst 2) financial considerations (i.e. advertising dollars and need for manufacturer's to submit gear for future reviews -- overly neg review = no gear in the future to review). Of course sometimes it is just that they hear things differently. While misconceptions are also spread by Head Fi members -- creating an echo -- where everyone then starts "hearing" the same thing, there are some diamonds in the rough here that have the talent to remain objective and can elucidate us with their technical know how and golden hears -- it just behooves us to find and identify them. So thank you to you all who have enlightened us with your knowledge. While some of this stuff is still above my head (electronics is not my field -- unfortunately) reading between the lines has saved me a good bunch of money! Thanks!beerchug.gif


Edited by Cante Ista - 3/2/13 at 4:33am
post #475 of 594
Quote:
Originally Posted by David1961 View Post

I only want to listen to audio equipment, which is why I haven't tried to learn about the technical side of it , but I do take note of someone I believe does. That's the main reason I have the BHSE.

 

I think most headfiers will know who I'm referring to when I mentioned I take note of someone. I feel it would be a very big loss to Head-fi if he decided to stop going on.

post #476 of 594
Quote:
Originally Posted by David1961 View Post

 

I think most headfiers will know who I'm referring to when I mentioned I take note of someone. I feel it would be a very big loss to Head-fi if he decided to stop going on.

 

don't worry, i dont think Jude is going anywhere

HeadAmp Audio Electronics - home of the Pico and Gilmore amps.  Now with Audeze, Fostex, HiFiMAN, Sennheiser, and STAX.
Find us at www.HeadAmp.com

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post #477 of 594
Quote:
Originally Posted by justin w. View Post

 

don't worry, i dont think Jude is going anywhere

 

Good guess Justin, but I think you know who I'm on about.

post #478 of 594
Quote:
Originally Posted by justin w. View Post

don't worry, i dont think Jude is going anywhere
LOL.
post #479 of 594
Spritzer, your comments are appreciated (although way over my head). I am ordering a BHSE to compare for myself and will sell the one I like the least.
I wish Jack Woo would contribute here...
post #480 of 594
Let me throw out another consideration: if one uses the Realizer A8, do the differences among the WES, BHSE, and LL become more minor?
Since the A8 is equalizing the sound and simulating other speakers anyway, won't the individual differences of each amp wash out?
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