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Official Shmup Thread! - Page 2

post #16 of 133
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roller View Post


 

There are, for instance, plenty of pre-2000 NeoGeo games that aren't any amazing because of their age ;)



Hey, that's not necessary. I'm very well aware that a lot of older games are quite good. But, having myself grown up on more modern systems (my first console was a PS1), I don't have quite the same appreciation for it as some simply because I don't have first hand experience with them. When you said older I assumed last generation or somesuch-- which is what I commonly think of as 'older,' for better or for worse.


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roller View Post

Oh, I forgot about a new one I've played! You guys should definitely try Jets'n'Guns, it's very entertaining.

 

Another thing I like on my shmups is the ability to upgrade outside the levels themselves, through shops and whatnot.


That does look interesting, and fairly entertaining.

 

Sometimes I like that kind of functionality a lot, since it gives you more time and flexibility, and can feel more personal. On the other hand, it breaks away from the traditional arcade experience that is so attractive to a lot of players (myself included), so it sometimes feels less engaging for those reasons. Then there are games that don't have upgrades at all, like Ikaruga, or ones where the upgrades are absolutely necessary, like Mushihime-sama.

 

It really depends on the game and how it's implemented, in my opinion.

 

post #17 of 133
Quote:
Originally Posted by Softdrink 117 View Post



Hey, that's not necessary. I'm very well aware that a lot of older games are quite good. But, having myself grown up on more modern systems (my first console was a PS1), I don't have quite the same appreciation for it as some simply because I don't have first hand experience with them. When you said older I assumed last generation or somesuch-- which is what I commonly think of as 'older,' for better or for worse.

 



Lol, I see where you're coming from, and I do respect that. Old gaming goes way back, and having experienced those games as brand new back then gave it a whole different perspective.

post #18 of 133
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roller View Post



Lol, I see where you're coming from, and I do respect that. Old gaming goes way back, and having experienced those games as brand new back then gave it a whole different perspective.


I have no doubt about that. And I absolutely respect and enjoy older games if and when I have the opportunity to play them-- the issue is that doesn't happen very often.

 

post #19 of 133
Machinae Supremacy actually did the music for Jets n Guns. Really fun band. Favorite song being Hybrid.
Edited by MorbidToaster - 3/19/12 at 8:19am
post #20 of 133
Quote:
Originally Posted by MorbidToaster View Post

Machina Supremacy actually did the music for Jets n Guns. Really fun band. Favorite song being Hybrid.


True. I had to get the soundtrack after playing the game. Good stuff :)

post #21 of 133

I've never tried a Seimitsu stick tbh, and I really like the octogonal restrictor plate on the Sanwa =)

 

BTW, I see that Gradius V is playable on that PC emu? awesomeness, gonna try! coz as much as I love this game, the sloppy PS2 hardware with all the kludges required have made me move on. That stupid PS2 can output native 640x480 60Hz VGA but you need a specific VGABOX, a boot loader to force VGA, then a boot loader to open your backup modded for 60Hz...I mean geeez. You also need to play +18H IIRC in order to unlock the game completely. The ability to play in VGA w/ a saved game on the PC after a few clicks sounds very tempting :)

 

Anyway, I've tried most of the shmups I could put my dirty hands on but to me they all feel unfinished/pointless compared to what Treasure can offer. I mean Ikaruga, RS, G5 are just state of the art all the way: perfect gameplay, stunning graphics, superb music. The competition is far away.


Edited by leeperry - 3/19/12 at 8:54am
post #22 of 133

The best PS2 emu, PCSX2, really has come a long way since its initial release, and now can play a very large library of games with little to no issues at all. As long as you have a reasonably powerful CPU and a non legacy GPU, you should be able to play at native speeds, and if you happen to have specs closer to high end, then you just might be able to crank up graphics way beyond what the originals allowed.

post #23 of 133

well, I don't think Ikaruga has ever been fully playable on PC?

 

and going PC only would also alleviate the jitter of those pesky PS2>PC USB adapters...tempting happy_face1.gif

post #24 of 133
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by leeperry View Post

well, I don't think Ikaruga has ever been fully playable on PC?

 

and going PC only would also alleviate the jitter of those pesky PS2>PC USB adapters...tempting happy_face1.gif


Ikaruga is 100% perfectly playable on pc via Dolphin, a stable and powerful gamecube/wii emulator. In theory you could even use it to play at settings above maximum (I, for example, play it at almost 1080x1920 once my monitor is flipped), but that requires a much more powerful  computer.

 

PCSX2, the PS2 emulator mentioned above, is also very powerful. It's improved some games to the point where they look better outside of pre-rendered cutscenes, because of resolution. And for many of my games it plays flawlessly. However, for some it doesn't work well at all. The Jak and Daxter series, for example, are indeed playable-- at an average of 20-30 fps. Some of my favorite games are outright unplayable, while others work perfectly (or better).

 

I would do some research before trying Gradius, or any shmup for that matter, via PCSX2. I play R-Type Final with it frequently, but Final had slowdown issues even on the native PS2 hardware, so I don't notice it nearly as much.

 

If you have any questions about either emulator, I'd be happy to share my experiences in more detail. They have some unusual quirks.

 

And regarding the arcade stick:

I was under the impression that the larger 'neutral zone' on Sanwa sticks compared to Seimitsu sticks made them less favorable for shmups. I'll have both arriving soon (can't wait ;D), so I'll be able to test for myself. I assume the buttons are awesome enough not to need replacing.

 

EDIT:

 

I hate to be shamelessly self-promoting, but I thought due to the nature of the thread I might as well mention that I recently made a couple Ikaruga wallpapers (in white and black polarity, of course). If any of you guys are interested I can post them.

 

EDIT2:

 

I checked my exact system configuration for Dolphin. It emulates at 2x native resolution-- so 1280 x 1056 --  without AA or other enhancements. I can run those as well, but fps loses consistency, so I have them disabled.


Edited by Softdrink 117 - 3/19/12 at 11:04am
post #25 of 133

Well, I've often read that the DC version of Ikaruga was more or less identical to the native NAOMI and that the GC version was so-so. Quite frankly, I also tried to play RS on a PC a while back, and that was quite a failure as well.

 

Anyway, the nice added value of G5 is that both G-Rev and Treasure worked on it, and they were forced to keep the Gradius legacy alive...so it's not an hardcore RS by a long shot, it's just the best shmup ever IMO. It's like hearing a $3K DAC, it completely spoils you ^^

 

It's true that the central dead zone is a bit annoying on the JLF, and tbh it gets worse overtime....but the hexagonal restrictor is really great! I kept reading that the Seimitsu sticks were very stiff and the buttons eye candy but not as responsive as the sanwa's.

 

This said, in real japanese arcade cabinets, hexagonal restrictors are forbidden and I think you can get the Seimitsu's hexagonal w/o buying any extra part...all this said, a full sanwa mod on a DC arcade stick using a PSX dualshock PCB is great fun happy_face1.gif


Edited by leeperry - 3/19/12 at 11:38am
post #26 of 133
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by leeperry View Post

Well, I've often read that the DC version of Ikaruga was more or less identical to the native NAOMI and that the GC version was so-so. Quite frankly, I also tried to play RS on a PC a while back, and that was quite a failure as well.

 

Anyway, the nice added value of G5 is that both G-Rev and Treasure worked on it, and they were forced to keep the Gradius legacy alive...so it's not an hardcore RS by a long shot, it's just the best shmup ever IMO. It's like hearing a $3K DAC, it completely spoils you ^^

 

It's true that the central dead zone is a bit annoying on the JLF, and tbh it gets worse overtime....but the hexagonal restrictor is really great! I kept reading that the Seimitsu sticks were very stiff and the buttons eye candy but not as responsive as the sanwa's.

 

This said, in real japanese arcade cabinets, hexagonal restrictors are forbidden and I think you can get the Seimitsu's hexagonal w/o buying any extra part...all this said, a full sanwa mod on a DC arcade stick using a PSX dualshock PCB is great fun happy_face1.gif


I think the main complaint about the gamecube was that the gamecube controller is HORRIBLE for shmups-- which it is. It adds a lot of functionality to the game, including Prototype mode and Conquest mode, while still being almost arcade perfect. The only losses are the japanese text introducing each level, which is indeed a shame.

 

However, what region are you?

PAL runs at 50hz, so the game supposedly seems jittery in comparison to the other ones.

 

The only gameplay relevant differences between the DC and GC versions are that DC has unintended slowdown on some segments that GC does not, and DC allows you to go slightly further off screen than GC (which is almost never relevant to gameplay anyways). Sound-wise, supposedly the GC version is limited by the GCs processor-- allegedly it's the equivalent of MP3 vs. FLAC. However, if you're emulating the limitation will be the ISO (which would in this case include that codec) and the audio processor of the emulator. I have no idea how effective the DC emulator is, so I can't comment on that much at all.

 

I do have copies of the entire soundtrack in MP3, and have no qualms with it at all.

 

I'm planning to use either octo gate or square, on an LS-58, which is supposedly a lighter and faster LS-32. It's considered the current best stick for shmupping. As far as buttons go I'm planning to use full Sanwa, since I've heard some less-than-ideal things about Seimitsu buttons.

 

post #27 of 133

yep, I think the horror stories I read about Ikaruga GC were on a PAL console, so the 50Hz hiccup was simply the icing on the cake on top of the issues you just mentioned.

 

this said, I really like the japanese talk at the beginning of RS in the Saturn version...I find it pretty annoying that they were not in the original STV. So arcade perfect is not always that desirable.

 

ok, let us know about your LS58/sanwa real world comparison if you can...I'd like to build another arcade stick, but I can't be hassled to use those dodgy old consoles/game controllers adapters...I wanna go emu and build a native USB stick smile.gif

 

at some point I tried my luck w/ MAME, but I'm a Reclock nuts when I watch movies...I just can't stand all the stuttering that's happening in all those vintage games. Like Progear, its horizontal scrolling gives me headaches duh.


Edited by leeperry - 3/19/12 at 7:38pm
post #28 of 133
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by leeperry View Post

yep, I think the horror stories I read about Ikaruga GC were on a PAL console, so the 50Hz hiccup was simply the icing on the cake on top of the issues you just mentioned.

 

this said, I really like the japanese talk at the beginning of RS in the Saturn version...I find it pretty annoying that they were not in the original STV. So arcade perfect is not always that desirable.

 

ok, let us know about your LS58/sanwa real world comparison if you can...I'd like to build another arcade stick, but I can't be hassled to use those dodgy old consoles/game controllers adapters...I wanna go emu and build a native USB stick smile.gif

 

at some point I tried my luck w/ MAME, but I'm a Reclock nuts when I watch movies...I just can't stand all the stuttering that's happening in all those vintage games. Like Progear, its horizontal scrolling gives me headaches duh.


Sorry for the late response.

 

I agree that the japanese text was a nice thematic element that I do miss sometimes. But it's really no big deal. And I would normally pursue the arcade perfect experience as much as possible, but the differences here are so minute, and so many other bonuses are present that aren't in the original, that I'm more than satisfied for the time being.

 

I just finished placing my orders for the stick-- I'm going to use an Eightarc Onyx as a base, due to low cost, insane quality, and low shipping (within California, at least). I also ordered an LS-58-01, so I should be able to directly compare the JLF and LS-58 once they get here. EXCITED!!!

 

As far as going USB native: I say go for it. To be honest, I wanted to build one from scratch, but as a college student with athletic and club obligations I frankly don't have the time to devote to such DIY projects. (Over this summer I plan to rectify that, starting with a pair of full-range Voight pipe based speakers and a Gainclone).

 

That isn't something that ever occurred to me as an issue, but now that you mention it I can see why it would cause problems for someone in this hobby. I haven't used MAME yet, although i plan to someday-- I'd love to have my own cabinet full of shmupping goodness.

 

And some horizontal scrollers work for me, some don't. I love R-type (I, III, and Final), but some of the Gradius titles make me uneasy after a while. I haven't the slightest idea why.

post #29 of 133

Yes, I would indeed need a good stick to mod...the official DC is great because its top panel is non-sticky, but the color scheme is pretty horrid(including the yellow start button). Most cheap sticks are made of flimsy plastic that just feels cheap and their top panel gets terribly sticky after a little while.

 

OK, sounds like a plan! I will try G5 and Ikaruga GC, they might just convince me to build an arcade stick again evil_smiley.gif

 

Well, I'm all for butter-smooth 24p movies and 60fps videogames...all I've seen in MAME were very old hiccuping games. There's only so much you can expect from a 30yo videogames cabinet ^^

 

Awaiting your feedback on LS-58-01 then! I hope you bought the octogonal restrictors as well, coz these things are hell fun to dodge bullets.


Edited by leeperry - 3/22/12 at 11:46am
post #30 of 133
Sine Mora is out on XBL for 1200 points. ($15)

Looks like I'll be picking this up at some point.
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