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post #1246 of 1958
Quote:
Originally Posted by mark_h View Post

I don't see any problem with publishing some figures...unless the fundamentals measure badly?

Either they're bad, or they're just nothing special (Clip-like or marginally worse), and everyone's worried that it would kill the hype.
post #1247 of 1958
Quote:
Originally Posted by zenpunk View Post

Interesting point but the LO measurement just seems to highlight how poorly those two amps perform. I have seen measurements of the LO (loaded with high Z as you would expect when using an amp) of the Z and there were quite a bit better than the HO loaded with 16Ohms. rolleyes.gif

They weren't loaded at 16 ohms. The high input Z amps connected to the 16 ohm were, probably to mimic what happens with the Sony on it's own. I suspect that if we saw the sony on it's own with load, it would fare worse. Problem here is that it looks like you might be better off hooking up the amp to it's earphone jack.

post #1248 of 1958
Quote:
Originally Posted by goodvibes View Post

That said, if I like the way something sounds, ummm, I probably like the way it sounds.bigsmile_face.gif

 

Don't get me wrong, I'm far from dogmatic in that regard. As you well know, I quite like my Final Audio IEMs, despite the fact that they measure atrociously.

 

I've found the Tera Player loaner to sound pretty bad with some of my IEMs, most notably the leaner and less bassy ones, but on the other hand it was the best pairing I've heard with both the IE800 and TOGO 334.

 

Here's an excerpt of my feedback to the TP's owner, after my auditions with the IE800 and 334: "...like with the LCD2s, I personally would want a smidgen more treble presence and air from the 334s to fit my taste, and while the Tera Player can't work wonders on their highs, it takes the bass down by just the right amount to tilt their overall sound signature towards a better balance in my book. So that's my interim result so far, one 'flawed' player and two IEMs that benefit greatly from said 'flaw' ;-) Things aren't always black and white, and your loaners are a prime example for that."

post #1249 of 1958
Quote:
Originally Posted by skamp View Post

.......................................................................Snip.......................................................................................... There is such a thing as good food (that gives your body what it needs) and bad food (that is low on essential nutriments and mostly gets transformed into fat). Didn't your mother teach you that?

Please don't pigeon-hole fast food restaurants for having "bad" food that your mother taught you about! Haute Cuisine from 5-star French restaurants is probably some of the least-nutritious food on the planet, but that doesn't prevent gourmet diners from visiting them and posting rave reviews! OTOH, selections from Subway rank very highly on the "good nutrition" scale.

Sorry for the hijack!
Edited by HiFlight - 2/3/13 at 1:07pm
post #1250 of 1958

Quote:

Originally Posted by james444 View Post

 

Don't get me wrong, I'm far from dogmatic in that regard. As you well know, I quite like my Final Audio IEMs, despite the fact that they measure atrociously.

 

I've found the Tera Player loaner to sound pretty bad with some of my IEMs, most notably the leaner and less bassy ones, but on the other hand it was the best pairing I've heard with both the IE800 and TOGO 334.

 

Here's an excerpt of my feedback to the TP's owner, after my auditions with the IE800 and 334: "...like with the LCD2s, I personally would want a smidgen more treble presence and air from the 334s to fit my taste, and while the Tera Player can't work wonders on their highs, it takes the bass down by just the right amount to tilt their overall sound signature towards a better balance in my book. So that's my interim result so far, one 'flawed' player and two IEMs that benefit greatly from said 'flaw' ;-) Things aren't always black and white, and your loaners are a prime example for that."

 

 

You damned subjectavista.wink_face.gif I think we're similar as it takes 2 sides to balance an equation. beerchug.gif The variance is in the weighting.


Edited by goodvibes - 2/3/13 at 1:11pm
post #1251 of 1958
Quote:
Originally Posted by HiFlight View Post

Please don't pigeon-hole fast food restaurants for having "bad" food that your mother taught you about! Haute Cuisine from 5-star French restaurants is probably some of the least-nutritious food on the planet, but that doesn't prevent gourmet diners from visiting them and posting rave reviews! OTOH, selections from Subway rank very highly on the "good nutrition" scale.

Just like you can enjoy bad food, you can enjoy bad gear (hello, audiophiles! [*]). Still, most governments force the food industry to print objective "measurements" on the labels of everything they sell in supermarkets. Just like people have the right to be informed about what they eat, and to get the means to determine what is "good" food, people should be able to evaluate gear by objective means, without having to buy it.

Can we drop the bad analogy now?

[*] e.g. audiophiles not minding the hiss on the Studio V, even though hiss is both objectively and subjectively bad.
Edited by skamp - 2/3/13 at 1:23pm
post #1252 of 1958

I happen to like the "bad analogy" it works quite well. We can't agree on it just like we can't agree on the actual issue at hand.

Quote:
Originally Posted by skamp View Post


Just like you can enjoy bad food, you can enjoy bad gear (hello, audiophiles! [*]). Still, most governments force the food industry to print objective "measurements" on the labels of everything they sell in supermarkets. Just like people have the right to be informed about what they eat, and to get the means to determine what is "good" food, people should be able to evaluate gear by objective means, without having to buy it.

Can we drop the bad analogy now?

[*] e.g. audiophiles not minding the hiss on the Studio V, even though hiss is both objectively and subjectively bad.
post #1253 of 1958
Example: it's known that a high output impedance will severely affect the UE Triple Fi 10 IEMs by emphasizing mids and killing highs. How would one know that prior to purchase, unless someone with the exact combination of the high output impedance DAP and those IEMs reported about it? And even then, their perception might be completely different than yours: they could report "powerful mids" and "smooth, natural highs". How would that be helpful?

With objective measurements, I could determine in advance if a DAP is suitable for me, without having to rely on subjective impressions that might not exist for the particular combination I'm looking for, or that may be too subjective for me to be able to make a reliable assessment.
post #1254 of 1958
Quote:
Originally Posted by kenman345 View Post

I happen to like the "bad analogy" it works quite well. We can't agree on it just like we can't agree on the actual issue at hand.

Do I have to explain everything? It doesn't work because it was put forth with the notion that food doesn't get measured, and I pointed out that every packaged food product sold in supermarkets and elsewhere comes with objective data, "measurements" of sorts, about their contents. Just look at the back of your bottle of soda, it tells you exactly how much sugar it contains and how many calories it represents, etc…

So if you really want to go with the food analogy, where is the equivalent, objective data about the Tera Player? Right now, it's like a food product that you know nothing about. Maybe it will taste good, maybe not. Maybe it's bad for your health, maybe not. That's not allowed in most countries!
post #1255 of 1958
OK, still with the food analogy: it is VITAL for people who are allergic to certain subtances that the label disclose whether the product contains those substances or not. They can't just wait for other people to die and have it reported, or try and risk dying themselves.

Likewise, it's very important to know that the output impedance of a device won't destroy the frequency response of one's IEMs. Such IEMs are effectively "allergic" to high output impedance.

Is that enough with the food analogy for you now?
post #1256 of 1958

Wow,...such evasiveness,...so sad!!! I can't believe you guys, all the smoke screens & wordplay. 

post #1257 of 1958
Quote:
Originally Posted by tds101 View Post

...all the smoke screens & wordplay. 

 

...all smoke screens & wordplay  foodplay.

post #1258 of 1958
Quote:
Originally Posted by burtomr View Post

 

...all smoke screens & wordplay  foodplay.

Lol!!! That too,...which really made no bloody sense. k701smile.gif

post #1259 of 1958
Quote:
Originally Posted by HiFlight View Post

Just a hypothetical question to those who might be considering the purchase of a Tera-Player:

Let's say that you did order one and discovered after listening to it for a period of time that it really did sound very good to your ears, maybe even better than other players that you may have owned or heard, and you felt quite pleased with your decision to own the Tera.

Shortly thereafter, someone posted measurements that were said to have been done on the Tera-Player, and that the results were rather disappointing in that they were not even as good as those posted for the inexpensive Clip.

Question....What would you do...sell your Tera-Player and purchase a Clip based on what you read or continue to enjoy what you heard???

This question is, of course, not limited to the Tera-Player, but is equally applicable to other audio devices. Just substitute whichever two you wish in place of "Tera-Player" and "Clip" in the above question!

Maybe the question isn't so hypothetical after all!

 

I'd keep the devices that sounds best to my ears. I could care less if the scientist disagrees. :P.

post #1260 of 1958
Quote:
Originally Posted by skamp View Post


As NwAvGuy would say, you design by ear! A lot can go wrong that way, because human ears are nowhere near as precise or reliable as electronic gear, and also because your hearing and / or your perception and tastes can be more or less different from your customers'.

Also, those measurements don't apply to the TP, and there's still no word about its output impedance. And while it would be nice if you published a complete set of measurements yourself, I would still like to see independent measurements.

I think we are talking about listening to music, enjoyable music, are we?

 

Like music instruments, they all designed by ears.  The selection of certain wood would sound different to the other for a violin or a cello.  How could one measurement to distinguish this compared to a pair of excellent ears.  

 

All tube amplifiers measured much worse that those solid state counterparts and still there are huge community of hi-fiers being loyal to tubes...for their musicality or measurement. You to observe.

 

Yes, we might argue that Charles do not have the perfect ears in the world but no one would argue that he is one passionate individual on music, and engineering.  So, buying his device would take the trust in him (his ears) and believe in this music instrument tuner's credibility.    

 

We can see from elsewhere in this forum on the AK-100 that there is an inherited output impedance deficiency.  The device still managed to gather some loyal fans and to have it modified by RWA and continue their joyful journey with music. Bad measurement, no problem, go for it, enjoy music is the ultimate goal.

 

Turn on your music device and have a wonderful moment.  Music makes you happy.

 

Cheers

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