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post #1021 of 1958
Quote:
Originally Posted by smial1966 View Post

skamp

 

If you don't trust your own ears, how do you know what you're hearing?!?

 

Surely even a rational objectivist could differentiate between a poorly rendered MP3 track and an uncompressed music file played on the same DAP? Or have I succumbed to the dark forces? 

 

Andy.

 

Not all MP3 tracks are poorly rendered. The encoders have improved greatly over the years. The whole point of the ABX test is to determine if one actually can differentiate the two tracks, with no knowledge of which is which. They've surprised a lot of people. smile.gif

post #1022 of 1958

I do that test in a different way and blindly listen to different encoding by not knowing which is which but ranking them as I see fit. You'd be surprised at how repeatable it is with more than 2 variables when you just are trying to relate instead of trying not to be fooled. I prefer to test in the same way I listen. I use a dedicated server - streamer setup of high quality so that helps. I tend to think many PC setups mask some of this.


Edited by goodvibes - 1/9/13 at 12:41pm
post #1023 of 1958
Quote:
Originally Posted by smial1966 View Post

If you don't trust your own ears, how do you know what you're hearing?!?

The answer is in my post that you quoted: via proper ABX testing, which isolates what you're actually hearing from any sighted bias. I am fairly certain, from experience, that what you perceive during your casual listening sessions with the Tera Player incorporates a huge part of expectation bias which doesn't involve your ears, and is a far cry from what you actually hear.

I don't claim that I don't suffer from it too: I'm human just like you. I suspect that I'm afflicted with just as much bias as you when I listen to, say, my O2/ODAC. I read about it prior to my purchase and bought into the hype just as much as you did with the Tera Player. The difference is, I only claim transparency, and I don't attribute some mysterious and magical properties to it. All the hype that surrounded it was based on objective measurements and double blind tests. Also, I only spent €250 on it, not €500, not €840. What I rave about, I can objectively measure and test for, in a repeatable fashion. There is no mystery, as far as I'm concerned. No magic, no voodoo, nothing science can't explain or measure, just straight up competence and maybe even talent, free of the all too common bullschiit that's so pervasive in audiophool circles.
Quote:
Originally Posted by smial1966 View Post

Surely even a rational objectivist could differentiate between a poorly rendered MP3 track and an uncompressed music file played on the same DAP?

Probably, but any MP3 I produce are very high quality (LAME) and transparent. Same goes for other formats that I've used (Ogg Vorbis, Musepack, AAC, LossyFLAC).

It is precisely because I've successfully ABXed differences that were actually audible, and failed when they were not, that I have some sense of what is real and what is likely just some sort of bias. I still stumble on some tracks that raise my suspicions, which subsequently disappear after I run an ABX test to make sure. I still get surprised sometimes!

Most of the time, people imagine differences where there are none, and are simply ignorant of what actual differences sound like, most notably with lossy codecs. And you might notice, that the most vocal audiophools know nothing about digital audio, perceptual encoding, and sampling theory. Again, I'm largely ignorant myself, but at least I know it, and instead of letting my imagination go wild, I try to understand the inner workings of what I'm listening to.
Edited by skamp - 1/9/13 at 2:51pm
post #1024 of 1958
Quote:
Originally Posted by james444 View Post

 

That's only half of the problem. The other half being that those who do trust their ears are often the ones to be suspect of. wink.gif


Thus the middle-road approach ;).

post #1025 of 1958

skamp

 

With all due respect your paragraph below is bunkum. As it infers that all Tera Player (TP) owners are suffering from some mass delusional bias based on our sonic expectations rather than what we're actually hearing from the DAP. Granted a few TP owners have been prone to hyperbole describing the sound reproduction, but there are other more circumspect people who've owned other high end DAPs (such as the DX100) and they unanimously prefer the sound of their Tera Players to these other models. So surely we can't ALL be deluded?!?

 

If a listener can't trust their own ears and mind to deduce what sounds good, what really is the point of listening to music for pleasure? 

 

Andy.    

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by skamp View Post


The answer is in my post that you quoted: via proper ABX testing, which isolates what you're actually hearing from any sighted bias. I am fairly certain, from experience, that what you perceive during your casual listening sessions with the Tera Player incorporates a huge part of expectation bias which doesn't involve your ears, and is a far cry from what you actually hear.
post #1026 of 1958
Quote:
Originally Posted by smial1966 View Post

So surely we can't ALL be deluded?!?

I'd rather say that we're ALL subject to expectation bias, yes. I know it's really difficult to accept when you have never done any ABXing, but once you've done that a few times, it feels like a revelation. This is why it's so difficult to have a conversation with audiophiles, they haven't the slightest clue of how easily our perception (especially auditory) can be altered and manipulated. It's nearly impossible for them to believe it, and the worst part is that they usually refuse to even try an ABX session, or when then do and fail, they just dismiss the results altogether, because it's so hard for them to let go of (sometimes) years of, dare I say, faith. They've been living in Wonderland for far too long! They would need to let go of their entire belief system, and that's just not going to happen for most of them. It's even humiliating to realize how wrong one has been all those years, especially when one has been making a lot of claims! Not many people are big enough to admit that.

Personally, I was lucky, because I was educated about this early on, when I was just starting to get interested in all things audio. So I didn't have to let go of many beliefs, I didn't have to feel humiliated about years and years of bullschiit claims that I never made to begin with.
Quote:
Originally Posted by smial1966 View Post

If a listener can't trust their own ears and mind to deduce what sounds good, what really is the point of listening to music for pleasure?

I don't see a problem here. Feel free to take pleasure from whatever sounds good to you. I couldn't blame you from enjoying even mediocre gear, because that's entirely subjective. Whatever works for you! Also, the point is that you're listening to music for pleasure, like you said, not gear! I might debate with you if you happen to recommend objectively bad gear to clueless newbies, but that's a different matter.

Also, again, you can either be content with what you perceive, or, if you're really obsessed with finding gear that's objectively good, regardless of your perception, then you can always rely on objective measurements and some ABXing. Your choice, and I won't debate that!

Personally, I have made the choice to be somewhat objective about what gear I choose, but at the same time, I have no problem letting my expectation bias enhance my enjoyment of it. I feel like it's a win-win situation!
post #1027 of 1958
Quote:
Originally Posted by skamp View Post


I'd rather say that we're ALL subject to expectation bias, yes. I know it's really difficult to accept when you have never done any ABXing, but once you've done that a few times, it feels like a revelation. This is why it's so difficult to have a conversation with audiophiles, they haven't the slightest clue of how easily our perception (especially auditory) can be altered and manipulated. It's nearly impossible for them to believe it, and the worst part is that they usually refuse to even try an ABX session, or when then do and fail, they just dismiss the results altogether, because it's so hard for them to let go of (sometimes) years of, dare I say, faith. They've been living in Wonderland for far too long! They would need to let go of their entire belief system, and that's just not going to happen for most of them. It's even humiliating to realize how wrong one has been all those years, especially when one has been making a lot of claims! Not many people are big enough to admit that.

Personally, I was lucky, because I was educated about this early on, when I was just starting to get interested in all things audio. So I didn't have to let go of many beliefs, I didn't have to feel humiliated about years and years of bullschiit claims that I never made to begin with.
I don't see a problem here. Feel free to take pleasure from whatever sounds good to you. I couldn't blame you from enjoying even mediocre gear, because that's entirely subjective. Whatever works for you! Also, the point is that you're listening to music for pleasure, like you said, not gear! I might debate with you if you happen to recommend objectively bad gear to clueless newbies, but that's a different matter.

Also, again, you can either be content with what you perceive, or, if you're really obsessed with finding gear that's objectively good, regardless of your perception, then you can always rely on objective measurements and some ABXing. Your choice, and I won't debate that!

Personally, I have made the choice to be somewhat objective about what gear I choose, but at the same time, I have no problem letting my expectation bias enhance my enjoyment of it. I feel like it's a win-win situation!

 

1000

 

Very well said.....hopefully it does not get summarily dismissed by its intended recipients.

post #1028 of 1958

lol somewhat objective? You're a hardcore objectivist more so. tongue.gif
 


Edited by lee730 - 1/10/13 at 3:52am
post #1029 of 1958
Quote:
Originally Posted by lee730 View Post

You're hardcore objective more so. tongue.gif

Nah. I spent €250 on my iPod Classic, just because how sexy it is tongue.gif
post #1030 of 1958
lol @ Achmedisdead. smile.gif
post #1031 of 1958
If I am deluded, it is a lovely delusion and I have no desire to leave it. smily_headphones1.gif

Perception is everything as far as I'm concerned, so even if an audio components 'measurements' are truly atrocious but it sounds good to my ears, well that's all that I'm bothered about.

Andy.
post #1032 of 1958
And I don't mind that. What I do mind, is recommending objectively bad gear (though that has not been established for the Tera Player yet) based on imaginary qualities. As for the Tera Player, I do mind recommending to spend so much money on a product that lacks so many basic features, while touting exceptional properties that haven't been proven to be real, that are unlikely to begin with, when a $40 Clip+ might very well be able to do the job.

The hype is all the more annoying when it gets to such extremes.
post #1033 of 1958
To play the devil's advocate: I use pretty much the same EQ on all of my gear (ODAC, iPod, Clip+). I RMAA'ed my gear with the EQ on just by curiosity, and the result, obviously, is an extremely non-linear frequency response. In other words, with a simple EQ on, my fabulous gear which I feel sounds awesome, measures extremely badly!

The difference is that I'm working with sources that are perfectly neutral to begin with, and that I can alter as I see fit. The only recommendation that makes sense to me, is that of such neutral gear, clean sources, because whatever changes you make, you can undo, and revert to a REAL "high fidelity" configuration.

If some gear measures badly to begin with, you can't undo anything, and you can't ever get high fidelity if you ever want it.
post #1034 of 1958

skamp,

 

Your opinion is perfectly valid, but what I object to is your intimation that all Tera Player (TP) owners have been somehow deluded into purchasing a flawed product. Patently your analysis is incorrect, as every TP purchaser is extremely pleased with the sonic attributes of this DAP and not one has bemoaned their acquisition. However, your skewed logic asserts that we're all wrong because you know best and that if it can't be objectively measured it isn't real. Thus without substantiating our claim of TP sonic goodness with RMAA analysis, owners are being disingenuous by trusting their own ears! basshead.gif

 

Andy. 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by skamp View Post

And I don't mind that. What I do mind, is recommending objectively bad gear (though that has not been established for the Tera Player yet) based on imaginary qualities. As for the Tera Player, I do mind recommending to spend so much money on a product that lacks so many basic features, while touting exceptional properties that haven't been proven to be real, that are unlikely to begin with, when a $40 Clip+ might very well be able to do the job.

The hype is all the more annoying when it gets to such extremes.
post #1035 of 1958
Quote:
Originally Posted by smial1966 View Post

Patently your analysis is incorrect, as every TP purchaser is extremely pleased with the sonic attributes of this DAP

Actually, that observation is perfectly compatible with my theory: only people who are extremely likely to be affected by expectation bias and who have drunk the kool-aid would spend so much money on a DAP that is so lacking. No-one else in their right mind would even consider it. Your opinion was already made before you even placed the order!

You know, playing devil's advocate again, my own opinion is already pretty much made as well, before I've even heard the TP, so I'm probably as much biased as you, just in the opposite direction, I'll give you that. But that's because of a personal observation that's both objective and subjective: my perfectly transparent gear, combined with a EQ to my liking, sounds already awesomely good, so I cannot for the life of me imagine any improvement that couldn't be gained from some cheap, voodoo-free DSP.

I don't doubt that your $840 DAP sounds good to you, or to a number of people. I only doubt that the reason has objective grounds, and it really bugs me to see people spend so much money for no good reason. I probably care too much, but hey, this is the internets! tongue.gif
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