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Damping factor. Why it is not always as important as some make it out to be. - Page 3

post #31 of 128
Quote:
Originally Posted by germanium View Post

Funny, While some of what you are saying is true tubes are still used in much of the pro gear & the pro gear does not have most of the sonic issues you talk of.
What's funny is that not I have said that but a tube amp manufacturer.
post #32 of 128
Quote:
Originally Posted by germanium View Post



I would trust the designer to tell me what type of amp they designed to so I would at least know how best to drive them, Whether Either zero impedance, matched Impeance or anything in between. The designer would know. However most large manufacturers you are not going to get a hold of the designers. Often times it would go through some commitee & end up sounding like all thier other products in the end anyway at large corperate manufacturers.

 


It does not have to be a big company, and some amplifier designers(IMO) don't really know what they are doing or use audiophile voodoo myths in their amps. It really is better to use proven test(which corresponds to what we hear) than rely purely on hearing for design. Just look, we have many such designers out there(all with their differing views to DAC/amplifier audio implementation), your points on damping MAY not be absolute either(just like those debates on volume control implementation and blah blah).

post #33 of 128
Maybe someone can step up and convince me, but Impedance matching has no use in low frequency transmission stuff (like the audio bandwidth).

Most audio power amplifiers are voltage sources, therefore are designed to have as low an output impedance as possible.
High output impedance can be used to mask a multitude of sins, i.e. a marginally stable amp deisgn, poor to non-existent short circuit protection.

Impedance matching is normallly used (in 2012) in video, digital, RF transmission, i.e high frequency transmission.

No comments from the "I hate tubes!" brigade, please and thank you.

I would guess that 97% of the audio voodoo stuff probably comes from some marketing expert, but who knows? What do I know?
post #34 of 128
It just doesn't make much sense with most speakers to have a high output impedance amp if you take a look at the speakers' impedance plots. For example a Klipsch RF-62 II has about 3 ohms at 125 Hz and over 20 ohms at about 75 Hz. Now there's already a peak at 75 Hz with a low output impedance amp (!), but if you have lets say 10 ohms output impedance you'll get an additional 9 dB narrow peak there which is just horrible. And it's similar with speakers that cost 4000 or even 9000 €.
Edited by xnor - 3/9/12 at 8:28am
post #35 of 128
Quote:
Originally Posted by xnor View Post

It just doesn't make much sense with most speakers to have a high output impedance amp if you take a look at the speakers' impedance plots. For example a Klipsch RF-62 II has about 3 ohms at 125 Hz and over 20 ohms at about 75 Hz. Now there's already a peak at 75 Hz with a low output impedance amp (!), but if you have lets say 10 ohms output impedance you'll get an additional 9 dB narrow peak there which is just horrible. And it's similar with speakers that cost 4000 or even 9000 €.



+1

 

In addition, if you had (for example) a power amp capable of outputting 100 or 200 Watts into 8 ohms (or a speaker like your Klipsch) and the power amp had an output impedance of (for example) 10 ohms, then the efficiency of the power amp would be terrible.

 

Lowering output impedance improves efficiency.

 

post #36 of 128
Quote:
Originally Posted by xnor View Post

It just doesn't make much sense with most speakers to have a high output impedance amp if you take a look at the speakers' impedance plots. For example a Klipsch RF-62 II has about 3 ohms at 125 Hz and over 20 ohms at about 75 Hz. Now there's already a peak at 75 Hz with a low output impedance amp (!), but if you have lets say 10 ohms output impedance you'll get an additional 9 dB narrow peak there which is just horrible. And it's similar with speakers that cost 4000 or even 9000 €.


This is only true for passive speakers, with their archaic unpowered crossovers consisting of little more than power inductors and capacitors.  A weakness of passive systems is that the amplifier is driving, in the first instance, not the speaker drivers, but rather the crossover.  In a very real sense, the amplifier is blocked by the crossover.

 


Edited by Mauricio - 3/9/12 at 7:12pm
post #37 of 128
Quote:
Originally Posted by Willakan View Post



Please explain in what way tubes have a more transparent midrange than solid state amps. This reads like unsubstantiated myth propogation.

 



Because it is . . .

post #38 of 128
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mauricio View Post


This is only true for passive speakers, [...]


You don't need to worry about damping factor if you buy active speakers, do you? rolleyes.gif

 

post #39 of 128
Quote:
Originally Posted by xnor View Post


You don't need to worry about damping factor if you buy active speakers, do you? rolleyes.gif

 



No, not in the sense or to the extent that you do with passive ones.  In any case, you took my comment out of context in your reply, for you deleted what followed.  My comment pertained to the wide impedance swings, not the importance of the damping factor.  Nice try [not really]. 


Edited by Mauricio - 3/10/12 at 4:23am
post #40 of 128
Quote:
Originally Posted by xnor View Post


You don't need to worry about damping factor if you buy active speakers, do you? rolleyes.gif

 


Obviously!    rolleyes.gif     The speaker manufacturer takes care of damping factor for you.

But I would think that the manufacturer of an Active speaker would use a power amp with very low output impedances for a variety of factors:

flat frequency response WRT to the driver,

high efficiency and

high damping factor.
 

 

post #41 of 128
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mauricio View Post

My comment pertained to the wide impedance swings, not the importance of the damping factor.

Sorry, but this thread is about the importance of the damping factor ... just as it says in the thread title. Which is irrelevant for active speakers unless you build them on your own.
 

 


Edited by xnor - 3/10/12 at 5:06am
post #42 of 128
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shike View Post



Because it is . . .


In addition;
Anyone who doesn't like tubes, doesn't like recorded music!

Tubes are often used in recording studios in Vacuum Tube condensor microphones, vacuum tube mic pre-amps, vacuum tube equalizers, vacuum tube compressors.

Quick!

Someone tell Manley they are in the wrong business!

 

post #43 of 128
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris J View Post


In addition;
Anyone who doesn't like tubes, doesn't like recorded music!

Tubes are often used in recording studios in Vacuum Tube condensor microphones, vacuum tube mic pre-amps, vacuum tube equalizers, vacuum tube compressors.

Quick!

Someone tell Manley they are in the wrong business!

 


I like tubes, I just think I have enough of them in my audio chain ;)

 

post #44 of 128
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris J View Post



In addition;

Anyone who doesn't like tubes, doesn't like recorded music!
Tubes are often used in recording studios in Vacuum Tube condensor microphones, vacuum tube mic pre-amps, vacuum tube equalizers, vacuum tube compressors.
Quick!
Someone tell Manley they are in the wrong business!

well kinda obvious since that's all tubes are good for nowadays still(musical equipment).
post #45 of 128
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by RexAeterna View Post


well kinda obvious since that's all tubes are good for nowadays still(musical equipment).



Tubes work best where devices or speakers that are used with them are designed with tubes in mind. If that condition is met tubes offer performance in real audible terms that will leave almost all transistor gear sounding wanting. Tubes are used in studios wherever the best possable sound is desired. That is true even to this day. In many cases record companies have even restored the old tube tape recorders in order to get the original sound of these fantastic golden era recordings that in many cases puts even most of the best well reviewed recordings to shame. I have recordings that were done pre transistor era that are just fabulous sounding. Instruments sound as if you are in the very room they were recorded in. Sound is not lacking anywhere. Virtually none of the drawbacks people normally associate with tubes are present, Bass is not rolly polly, treble is not soft, doesn't sound colored in any way yet that midrange magic that you get with tubes is there in spades. With speakers designed with tubes in mind damping beyond a factor of 1 is not needed or even desired. Much of what peaple think of as causing the loosy goosy tube bass is just using speakers that are already tipped up in that area and that have inadaquate air load Tubes do not nessessarily have loosy goosy bass & there have been many recordings made with tubes that don't have any of these so called negative tube attributes.

 

Note that almost all modern speaker designs have inadaquate air loads. Golden era speakers had very good to excellent air loads & all impedances were mached as closely as possable back then to get the most out efficiency & best sound possable, especially in the studio environment. Horns were used back then as the horn is actually an acoustic impedance matching device. These were used with drivers & amps with matched 1 to 1 impedance thus having a damping factor of 1. These speakers had tight clean rock hard bass with the matching impedance of the amp & drivers. Crossovers were designed to take into account the source impedance that matched that of the drivers & as such could drive the speakers to very high volumes with very little wattage 5 watts was almost enough to drive you out of the room. People point to the bad specs of zero feedback tubes when run to thier power limit but they never point out that in many cases turn it down to a reasonable volume which in most cases is still plenty loud & the tube amp will if you have one that is properly designed will have distortion that is quite low, Definately inaudable by any stretch. My friends amp that he designed was one of these amps that at typical listening level without feedback was still only .02% distortion. Yes push the volume & you will get 2-3% distortion but nothing really noticable due to thier low order nature

 

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