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<Renewed at 2012/03/12>The new HiFiMAN 802 & New UI named "Tai-Chi" - Page 37

post #541 of 733
Quote:
Originally Posted by lee730 View Post

I can't argue with you there. Competition is always good for the Customers as is open-minded discussions.

 

Indeed. I could say more but I doubt it would be appreciated considering how this forum makes it's livelihood. I'll take the hint and go to sleep. Good night, y'all. wink.gif

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post #542 of 733
Quote:
Originally Posted by temporaryname View Post

A simple butterworth filter (like the one he's implemented) should do the trick to get the 'house sound'. It's just a matter of equalization. Doesn't require two 16-channel DAC's. From my experience with the DX100's changing sound through different firmware, it's seems like you need good software to get the ES9018 to sing, not multiples of the chip. Quality (or rather software optimization) over quantity.

I have spent a lot of time with the HM801 and in the end the strongest notion I came away with was that it was poorly designed. I'm not criticising the DAP purely on the youtube video. My collective experience with the HM801, HM601, HE500's, Head-direct and Fang and his comments and design choices form the basis of my criticism. Maybe you should read Fang's posts earlier in this thread to get an idea of what myself and others are talking about. Not that I'd expect you to change your mind.
Quote:
Originally Posted by temporaryname View Post

Quote:

Also, call me crazy, but I had a feeling someone would step up to the defence of the sponsor. I call shenanigans.

DX100 is implemented on Android, which is notorious for its sub-par stock audio driver (if you don't believe me, just google the XDA forum on Android SQ) and why iBasso spent a lot of time writing its own audio driver (and thus the subsequent improvement in sound via software update). What iBasso did is merely bring the software up-to-par with its hardware. Different from iBasso's approach (which is hardware first then software follow), the firmware on HM901 has been developed over the last three years to make sure the SoC they are using will work with the two ES9018 without a problem (it is not a standard design so they need to write the firmware to control two ES9018). I am not saying this to defend HifiMan, but to point out that there are story that you have no idea of and so shouldn't make hasty judgement.

As for Fang's comment, actually I have been reading them over at erji.net where he spent most of his time these days and not here. I read the iBasso discussion there as well, in case you think I am just blindly trying to defend Fang on this, well, but I guess you might just think I am making things up or in defensive mode....rolleyes.gif
post #543 of 733
Quote:
Originally Posted by temporaryname View Post

 

*******, that's tedious to watch.

 

I don't understand what he said about using 1 ES9018. Did he say it's too dry and "brittle"? Someone needs to lend him a DX100 because that's not the case at all. They obviously didn't do enough tests.

 

I like how all these new products are vastly more expensive. Who's valuing these products? Profit margins must be through the roof. Unfortunately that's a common trait amongst most audio companies.

I also like how he thinks auto levelling features are just for car audio systems lol. More features & convenience = not hi fi?

What do you think fang meant when he said 1 chip sound dry and digital? DX100 wink.gif.  Dx100 has been considered as a poor hifi toy on erji.net by the fans of hifiman. And most of the fans think 801 is even better than dx100. so that means 901 will just make dx100 a pointless DAP. well different people got different taste. But I do own 801, so I can understand where this comment about 2 chips come from. Fang has been too nice in this video. if you go to erji.net and say something bad about hifiman, you will get his flame soon as he sees it.tongue.gif But as long as 901 sounds good. I can accept his way of talking. Let's see.


Edited by tupac0306 - 10/31/12 at 3:37am
post #544 of 733

Why two ES9018 chips in the HM-901?

I can only guess as well as the rest of you guys here, and my guess is that the reason could be the same as why the Audio-gd Ref 7.1 DAC uses double as many chips as needed for it to work (8 chips for stereo in balanced operation instead of "only" 4): Doubling means there is two different chips taking the (same) signal, which could give better results than just one (averaging the results etc.).

post #545 of 733
Quote:
Originally Posted by ClieOS View Post


DX100 is implemented on Android, which is notorious for its sub-par stock audio driver (if you don't believe me, just google the XDA forum on Android SQ) and why iBasso spent a lot of time writing its own audio driver (and thus the subsequent improvement in sound via software update). What iBasso did is merely bring the software up-to-par with its hardware. Different from iBasso's approach (which is hardware first then software follow), the firmware on HM901 has been developed over the last three years to make sure the SoC they are using will work with the two ES9018 without a problem (it is not a standard design so they need to write the firmware to control two ES9018). I am not saying this to defend HifiMan, but to point out that there are story that you have no idea of and so shouldn't make hasty judgement.
As for Fang's comment, actually I have been reading them over at erji.net where he spent most of his time these days and not here. I read the iBasso discussion there as well, in case you think I am just blindly trying to defend Fang on this, well, but I guess you might just think I am making things up or in defensive mode....rolleyes.gif

 

 

Do not confuse what Android has done to what it really is capable of. Android care o-meter for sound is what has been implemented.... Think Beat Audio DSP or a big fat donut for "audiophiles".

 

The DX100, although on a depracated OS in Androind 2.3.1, is just a shell. The real portion of the DX100 sound (along with every phone that has something like a Wolfson in them) is the coding to use the DAC(in the DX100 case, ES9018). Direct I2S digital stream from the CPU. Firmware changes to the DAC CLK cycle will affect the sound of course.

 

I said it before. The probability of a dual DAC capable of feeding a 32 channel mixer directly working correctly right off the bat is very very low probability. Why do I say that? The programming needed is in the realm of parallel thread programming, dual firmware loading to sync the DACs, buffers to sync the outputs. Needlessly complicated. Not easy AND not cheap if it is being outsourced. Something that more than likely Feng is finding out first hand. There is a principle in the programming world (and electronic Engineering also) that applies here.

 

K.I.S.S

 

Keep It Simple Stupid.

 

I have seen the DX100 code.. ALL of it to include the android compile. It is actually very simple in what it does. Personally it is a shame that iBasso contracted RockChip to code as they are one of the few Chinese firms to stay at 2.3.1 with no future plans to go to ICS or JB. iBasso missed a couple of things but they have been very responsive to my input (and sorensiim) on what they need to do to implent or fix some items. I am not getting paid by them, I do not even own there product. But I find it a simple debug of the code and answers are retrieved just by looking at the code. iBasso has been reading the thread here just by some of the fixes that have been implemented. WIth the latest firmware... the reports are that the DX100 sounds damn great rivalling some of the desktop DAC's.

 

If iBasso (RockChip) can get the UI polished as they have been slowly doing and leave the sound as it is in 1.2.7 (with fixing the inital music cut during manual track selection), they will be hard to beat.

post #546 of 733
No, I really do believe Android has yet to show what it is capable of.. I am an Android user too.

But I don't really have any nice thing to say to RockChip as well, beside the fact that they are cheaper as SoC supplier and willing to deal with low volume, Their firmware support is historically known to be suck for the most part as they are more into quick money and do what is trendy of the time. Well, that can be said to most small SoC supplier in China at the moment. Don't know what SoC Fang is using on the HM901 this time, but he did say a few month ago that he hired a software engineer 3 years ago to do all the firmware coding in house so he doesn't have to rely on another vendor like HM801 (RockChip there as well).
post #547 of 733
Quote:
Originally Posted by LarsHP View Post

Why two ES9018 chips in the HM-901?
I can only guess as well as the rest of you guys here, and my guess is that the reason could be the same as why the Audio-gd Ref 7.1 DAC uses double as many chips as needed for it to work (8 chips for stereo in balanced operation instead of "only" 4): Doubling means there is two different chips taking the (same) signal, which could give better results than just one (averaging the results etc.).
cant be cos they only use one in the ESS lineup
post #548 of 733
Quote:
Originally Posted by .Sup View Post

cant be cos they only use one in the ESS lineup
I don't think you understood me - or if you did, then I don't understand you.
The chip used in the Reference 7 DAC from Audio-gd uses eight identical DAC chips (that's twice the number needed for stereo in balanced mode). Using two identical DAC chips for each channel is done because it makes the reading more accurate (if I got this correct) than if just one did the job.
post #549 of 733

I enjoyed listening to it (HM901) in balanced mode especially, and liked the form factor.

 

Also I had another listen to the HM602 and enjoyed its warm sound, quite nuturing :)

 

As it stands I dont picture myself purchasing a Hifiman as I have already hitched my wagon to the Apple train but I would like to spend more time

with the 602 and 901.

 

The Fiio X3 looks promising also, and at a great entry price.

post #550 of 733
Quote:
Originally Posted by ExpatinJapan View Post

I enjoyed listening to it (HM901) in balanced mode especially, and liked the form factor.

 

Also I had another listen to the HM602 and enjoyed its warm sound, quite nuturing :)

 

As it stands I dont picture myself purchasing a Hifiman as I have already hitched my wagon to the Apple train but I would like to spend more time

with the 602 and 901.

 

The Fiio X3 looks promising also, and at a great entry price.

Thanks. can you give us some more impressions on 901? like sound signature, etc?

post #551 of 733
Quote:
Originally Posted by tupac0306 View Post

Thanks. can you give us some more impressions on 901? like sound signature, etc?

I only spent a short time with it, at a demo table at a crowded head-fi meet.

 

The music was their own choice on their own memory card - (in the future I will prepare my own memory card).

 

*I have re-quoted my thoughts below that I uploaded recently, I do not want to add anything more as memory is a fickle thing.


Edited by ExpatinJapan - 10/31/12 at 5:44pm
post #552 of 733

*For Tupac0306

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by ExpatinJapan View Post

I tried the (901) at the the Tokyo Headphone show today. I thought it sounded great.

 

Normal setting, was a simple basic sound -but still sounded good/clear.

Balanced mode sounded nice and full, mesmerizing with clear forward(at times) vocals.

 

I preferred balanced mode.

 

*HD and Classic modes - I could not tell any difference.

 

4.5 volume setting was loud enough.

 

I found the UI smooth, and the scroll wheel functions well.

 

I even liked the quirky volume wheel.

 

Tested with ATH-ESW9.


Edited by ExpatinJapan - 10/31/12 at 5:45pm
post #553 of 733
Quote:
Originally Posted by ExpatinJapan View Post
 

thanks~.;)

post #554 of 733
Quote:
Originally Posted by LarsHP View Post

I don't think you understood me - or if you did, then I don't understand you.
The chip used in the Reference 7 DAC from Audio-gd uses eight identical DAC chips (that's twice the number needed for stereo in balanced mode). Using two identical DAC chips for each channel is done because it makes the reading more accurate (if I got this correct) than if just one did the job.
yes and if Audio GD thought 2 sabre chips instead of one made a difference they would be using two. Kingwa is known to use as many chips as possible, there was a prototype with 16 chips. But not for the ESS9018
post #555 of 733

Can't wait for this, loved the Hifiman 801 and this looks like it improved it in every way

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