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Pls Advise: A neutral DAC/Amp for a Neutral Headphone, $500-1000

post #1 of 33
2/14/12 at 10:38pm
Thread Starter 

 

Hi all,

This will be my first full size headphone purchase. Previously I have owned the following: Sennheiser PX200, CX550, HD239 (after the PX200 broke down) and Shure SE425.

I use the HD239 primarily with my computer for watching movies and playing games, and for serious music listening with my Ipod Classic, I use the SE425.



All of my music is lossless, and 95% falls more or less in the following: Jazz, NuJazz, Electronic, Downtempo, with the remaining being Rock and Pop.

My music is stored in the iPod and my computer, hence a DAC with USB support would be best.



I did some basic research into understanding my current listening preferences and the kind of response I like:



http://graphs.headphone.com/graphCompare.php?graphType=0&graphID[]=853&graphID[]=573&graphID[]=2741&graphID[]=1673



I don't particularly like the HD239/238, as the treble is too high for my taste and the bass is boomy. My preferred sound is neutral, therefore I like the SE425 best.

Since this is my first purchase for basically the entire setup, my headphone budget is 5-700.

As for the DAC and Amp, I'm mostly interested in getting the best bang for the buck, and will draw the line where the returns start diminishing for the price. (For example, a $2k amp may not be twice as good as the $1k amp (which may or may not be twice as good as a $500 amp) ).

My experience has been mostly with Sennheiser, hence 'HD600/650' in the title. Please feel free to suggest other headphones as well!


Edited by proton007 - 2/15/12 at 1:19am
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post #2 of 33
2/15/12 at 9:42am

To be honest it is hard to find something that at the $500 - $700 range that is going to please you for a long time.  I mean you could go with a Total Bithead and run a pair of beyer DT880 ( 32 Ohm ).  The total initial investment comes to $450 new and the experience will be pleasing for a while, but the Bithead has some serious limits for amping top-tier headphones like the HD-650, DT990, and AH-D2000.

 

At the $1000 range which is well worth saving up for you get into some serious packages.  The Micro Stack Package including headphones from Headphone.com runs just under $1000.  You get a standalone DAC, a standalone DAC, and your choice of headphones listed below:

Sennheiser HD650,

AKG 701, AKG Q701

beyerdynamic DT880,

Denon AH-D2000

 

http://www.headphone.com/packages/micro-stack-package-with-headphones.php

 

This is going to be a much better long term investment as you get a more powerful amp and a separate DAC which will help eliminate noise in the system.  I would suggest the DT880 ( 32 Ohm ) or AKG Q701 headphones for this package and your listening tastes.  The HD-650 are still much too hard to drive and sound very laid back which will drive you crazy one day.

 

I will say that the Total Bithead and DT880 ( 32 Ohm ) will work just fine and probably remain quite enjoyable for some time.  It does leave you room to easily improve which may be a good thing if your future budget allows.  For me, though, I had to go for something like my Grace Design m903 and a pair of DT990 ( 250 Ohm ) and AH-D2000 to really enjoy my listening experience.  The m903 is a really neutral sounding amp which is why I went for more bass and treble heavy headphones.  The balance, to me at least, is simply sublime and was well worth the cost.

 

Best of luck.

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post #3 of 33
2/15/12 at 5:06pm
Thread Starter 

Thanks for the suggestion! I'll try out the headphones at a local shop. From what I know, the Denons and Beyerdynamic are closed cans, so does this make them sound different than 'open' type

cans?

I've separated the budget for my headphones, so I am also considering to shell out a little bit more: For now I just get an Amp/DAC/PreAmp combo. A dedicated amp can be added later. 

The m903 is beyond my price point, at this moment, but I'm thinking about Burnson HA-160D. 

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post #4 of 33
2/15/12 at 5:21pm

If you're getting a DT880, go for at least the 250 Ohm version. The 600 Ohm one offers tighter bass which imo is just a tad better than the 250 Ohm version. The 32 Ohm version is optimised for mobile devices which imo, sound quality compromised. I seem to agree with Tyll (http://www.innerfidelity.com/content/comparison-beyerdynamic-dt-880-32-ohm-dt-880-250-ohm-and-dt-880-600-ohm-headphones-page-2) on this.

 

Fyi, DT880 is semi-open and it leaks sound.

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post #5 of 33
2/15/12 at 6:13pm

The Beyer DT880 is kinda neutral but so are the Sennheisers HD600 and HD650 with the HD650 a tad more fun and forgiving. As for DACs, you go all the way to the top with a Violectric V800 and V200 combi, Grace Designs DAC, Benchmark DAC1, Yulong D100, Centrance DACport LX(with a amp).

 

For amps, you may want to try out the Objective 2 if you are on a budget or else for me, the violectric amps are a solid choice. For me DIY seems like a better option, like the Wire and the like.

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post #6 of 33
2/15/12 at 6:53pm

So is the $500-1000 for your dac/amp alone and an additional $500-700 for the headphones?

 

If so, I would look into a used Dac1 or Dac1 USB.  It's extremely neutral and detailed and the amp section is excellent.  As for the Violectric suggestion, I would personally steer away from the V200.  It has a a nice organic sound which is pleasing to listen to, but it glosses over details, has a constricted soundstage, and quite frankly, sounds veiled.  This is all in comparison to my Dac1 USB so you may not notice such a loss of 3D feeling or detail coming from other gear.

 

Headphone-wise, the HD 650 is not neutral.  It is quite warm and has a bass boost. 

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post #7 of 33
2/15/12 at 7:08pm

As a former DT880/250 owner, I cannot recommend them.  I found them very dry.  At times, they were lifeless and un-engaging with music, even when being driven by a nice tube amp.  The DT990/600 are better, and the HD600 are better yet!
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by nikp View Post

If you're getting a DT880, go for at least the 250 Ohm version. The 600 Ohm one offers tighter bass which imo is just a tad better than the 250 Ohm version. The 32 Ohm version is optimised for mobile devices which imo, sound quality compromised. I seem to agree with Tyll (http://www.innerfidelity.com/content/comparison-beyerdynamic-dt-880-32-ohm-dt-880-250-ohm-and-dt-880-600-ohm-headphones-page-2) on this.

 

Fyi, DT880 is semi-open and it leaks sound.



 

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post #8 of 33
2/15/12 at 7:25pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by hodgjy View Post

As a former DT880/250 owner, I cannot recommend them.  I found them very dry.  At times, they were lifeless and un-engaging with music, even when being driven by a nice tube amp.  The DT990/600 are better, and the HD600 are better yet!
 



 


Another DT 880/250 non-recommendation from me.  I had them at the same time as the AKG K702 and the AKGs blew them away, IMO.  

 

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post #9 of 33
2/15/12 at 7:35pm

This one is a no brainer... Burson HA-160DS.

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post #10 of 33
2/15/12 at 9:33pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Saintly View Post

So is the $500-1000 for your dac/amp alone and an additional $500-700 for the headphones?

 

If so, I would look into a used Dac1 or Dac1 USB.  It's extremely neutral and detailed and the amp section is excellent.  As for the Violectric suggestion, I would personally steer away from the V200.  It has a a nice organic sound which is pleasing to listen to, but it glosses over details, has a constricted soundstage, and quite frankly, sounds veiled.  This is all in comparison to my Dac1 USB so you may not notice such a loss of 3D feeling or detail coming from other gear.

 

Headphone-wise, the HD 650 is not neutral.  It is quite warm and has a bass boost. 

Yes, being my first purchase, I want to spend as much as my pocket allows. A total of $12-1700.

IMO headphones follow a sharp price pyramid; as the price goes up the choices narrow down pretty fast, but for the DAC/AMPs there's a lot of choice and the prices keep going up, with seemingly diminishing returns. Hence I want to hit that 'boundary of diminishing returns' (if something like that exists).

The HD650 does seem to have a more pronounced low freq response, the HD600 seems to roll off in sub 20Hz range.

It seems it is hard to have headphones get that flat response, I mean there's a 10db difference between the Shure and Sennheisers..I hope its not audible.

Is there a general performance difference between IEMs and Headphones?

As a regular IEM user, what kind of performance should I be expecting from headphone?

HD600_650.png

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Solude View Post

This one is a no brainer... Burson HA-160DS.

The Burson HA-160DS does not have the option of adding a dedicated amp later...thats why I was considering the HA-160D. From what I've read, the Burson has a better amp, but the Benchmark has a better dac resolution.
 

 

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post #11 of 33
2/15/12 at 9:39pm

DAC Options

$100-200  ESI Juli@, Xonar, et al.  [PC-Soundcard DAC]

$150-300  HRT Music Streamers (USB)

$350        MF VDAC (USB)

$450        Schiit Bifrost (USB)

 

 

AMP Options

$150     JDS O2

Why consider anything else? lol

 

 

Headphone options

$2-300  Any mid-fi headphone (HD598/600, DT770/880/990, AKG 70x, D2000, et al.)

 

 

DAC/AMP combos

$150-and up  Audio-GD offerings (USB)

$180             Audinst HUD-MX1 (USB)
 
If it were me I'd get an Audinst MX1 and any $200-300 headphone and be done with it. You'd even have money left-over for a $100 set of Etymotic HF3 portable IEM's for your iPod.

 

 

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post #12 of 33
2/15/12 at 10:07pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by proton007 View Post

Yes, being my first purchase, I want to spend as much as my pocket allows. A total of $12-1700.

IMO headphones follow a sharp price pyramid; as the price goes up the choices narrow down pretty fast, but for the DAC/AMPs there's a lot of choice and the prices keep going up, with seemingly diminishing returns. Hence I want to hit that 'boundary of diminishing returns' (if something like that exists).

The HD650 does seem to have a more pronounced low freq response, the HD600 seems to roll off in sub 20Hz range.

It seems it is hard to have headphones get that flat response, I mean there's a 10db difference between the Shure and Sennheisers..I hope its not audible.

Is there a general performance difference between IEMs and Headphones?

As a regular IEM user, what kind of performance should I be expecting from headphone?

 



If you're willing to go to the top of your budget, you can get a used Sennheiser HD 800 and a Benchmark Dac1 or other 2-in-1. Honestly, the headphones make the biggest difference by far and the HD 800 may just be the last headphone you ever crave to buy.  Top of the line custom IEMs ($1000+) *may* rival the resolution of the HD 800 but they fall behind in imaging and soundstage.  

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post #13 of 33
2/16/12 at 5:12am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Saintly View Post



If you're willing to go to the top of your budget, you can get a used Sennheiser HD 800 and a Benchmark Dac1 or other 2-in-1. Honestly, the headphones make the biggest difference by far and the HD 800 may just be the last headphone you ever crave to buy.  Top of the line custom IEMs ($1000+) *may* rival the resolution of the HD 800 but they fall behind in imaging and soundstage.  



I think the Benchmark is wonderful.  I've had many, many tube and solid-state amps -- Woos, Singlepowers, Eddie Current, Phonitor, Phoenix, GCHA, X-Can, and probably about 50 others -- and I've always returned to the Benchmark.  The HD800 is also great; one of my favorite headphones ever.  BUT . . . that combination is incredibly revealing, and I find it to be too harsh.  I would get the Benchmark for almost any other headphone short of the Sony SA5000, but I would go in a different direction for the HD800.

 

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post #14 of 33
2/16/12 at 5:27am

Heya,

 

With a budget like that, consider:

 

HE-500 ($699 new, you can buy used too)

GD Audio NFB12.1 can get you started in a big way for an inexpensive price.

Or you can go Schiit Bifrost & Lyr/Asgard.

 

Very best,

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post #15 of 33
2/16/12 at 5:48am
Quote:
Originally Posted by MalVeauX View Post

Heya,

 

With a budget like that, consider:

 

HE-500 ($699 new, you can buy used too)

GD Audio NFB12.1 can get you started in a big way for an inexpensive price.

Or you can go Schiit Bifrost & Lyr/Asgard.

 

Very best,

NFB12.1? You kidding me? The OP said he preferred neutral. 

 

Surprised to find DT880 250 to be such a disappointment despite the many good experiences(including yours truly) with the 600ohm ver. Also with your question, I think comparing your Shure's with a real headphone setup, the experience might be a lot less "in your head" because of the vastly different soundstage. Also you might find headphones to be more detailed/ coherent with your music. Also I really think as a DAC and amp combo the DAC1USB/PRE is a good buy especially used. Another very good option you may want to consider would be the Centrance DACmini CX.

 

For the O2, I think I prefer Epiphany Acoustic's version of it looks a tad nicer with that knob ;)
 

 

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