Fostex TH900 Impressions & Discussion Thread - Page 91

Quote:

Originally Posted by shimmer n roar 

i'm not questioning your science purrin but i am sceptical that thd at the tiny, almost insignificant levels that your measurements record, could actually be heard to the extent that you believe. frequency response measurements on the other hand, do show the levels of treble, midrange and bass frequencies present in a headphone that are apparent when we listen to one. that doesn't mean that our hearing will necessarily align with what the measurements show (they should be regarded as indicative), but i do think that they are more relevant to the headphone listening experience.

Indeed the distortion levels at a few percent do seem miniscule, or at least the numbers do. However, as I said before and will repeat again: 1) Our ears are very sensitive to distortion, and 2) You have to understand what distortion actually is (I think you have some grasp, but not a good understanding).

To put distortion in frequency spectrum terms (which almost everyone should understand), here is another visualization on HP1000 vs. TH900 distortion. This time using two test tones at 22Hz and 66Hz near the reference levels used in the prior graphs. Ideally, a headphone should produce only these two tones. However, despite the "tiny, almost insignificant levels" (in your terms), why do we then see all this extraneous junk in the spectrum? That extra junk is distortion of a few percent or less. (I think what's throwing you off is how the percentages translate into actual levels.)

Download these two graphs and use a picture viewer to toggle between both to better see the differences. If you own or are familiar with these two headphones, you will know that the TH900 bass sounds so much cleaner than the HP1000's; and the HP1000's bass sounds much thicker, despite having a much less elevated bass frequency response than the TH900's "bloated" bass as the FR graphs would suggest! Frequency response does not explain everything.

While I do not contest your point that frequency response is one of the primary if not the prime indicator of how a headphone sounds like, other factors such as distortion, attack, and decay are what separates an LCD3 from say a SkullCandy Mix Master (which actually has a similar FR to the LCD3).

For additional reading, I would refer you to Zaph's site. He is actually places a very high priority on non-linear distortion, even more than I.

purrin, i think i have a sufficient grasp of what harmonic distortion is to make an informed judgement that i don't place as much importance on its presence in minuscule amounts as you do. if you believe that you are detecting it to such a significant degree then that is your prerogative. i find your obsession with it a bit "fringe" based on my own listening experience but maybe your hearing is more attuned to its presence than mine. i think we should agree to disagree on this one.

ps i don't think that anyone has described the th900 as having "bloated" bass. i know that i haven't as i'm yet to hear it. however, the frequency response measurements indicate that it has more bass presence than the d7000 that's all.

Who knows, maybe you could learn something new here.  Or maybe not.  That's fine too. 

and that sounds like a cheap shot.

lol! and i note rhythmdevils that you've just slyly edited your post to remove the offensive part. an apology would have sufficed.

Not sly, I just didn't want it to be offensive.  It's not personal.  Just trying to point out that open mindedness is a good thing.    yay, go headphones. 

no, it isn't personal - much appreciated. and not sharing someone's perspective shouldn't be construed as close-minded or ignorant.

Quote:

Originally Posted by purrin 

Believe in what you will. This is science, not magic. And science that attempts to correlate measurements with perception (not science of measuring things which can't be heard.) Also, it's important to understand what harmonic distortion actually is (which is really another topic.)

 

I don't know if you have ever heard the HP1000 or V-Moda M80. Both the HP1000 and M80 have measurably less bass than the TH900 in the frequency response plots of both Tyll's and my measurements. But yet, their bass sounds thicker and more strained than the TH900's bass. The HD plots below were taken with the headphones calibrated to 90db SPL/A with white noise. The TH900 measurements may have been taken at 93db. I may need to re-run them.

 

HP1000

 

V-Moda M80

 

TH900

 

 

D2, D3, D4, etc. are 2nd, 3rd, 4th order harmonic distortion. THD would very closely follow the D2 line, except in cases where D3 rises or exceeds D2 (V-Moda M80), where it would be a little higher than the D2 line.

 

TH900 2nd order harmonic remains between 0.5 - 0.6 percent distortion from 100Hz down to 60Hz, where it increases to just under 1% at 20Hz.

Distortion on the HP1000 and M80 already starts above 1% at 100Hz and increases to ~4.0% at 20Hz.

Wow...Purin, looks like HP1000 is still a technology marvel... even by today's standard.... :) no wonder it is still very difficult to find an used one... :)

(I haven't check your plotting thread for a long time...)

EDIT: I did not check that TH900 has even lower D2 and D3 :), it is today's marvel.. :)

nvm

Quote:

Originally Posted by shimmer n roar 

purrin, i think i have a sufficient grasp of what harmonic distortion is to make an informed judgement that i don't place as much importance on its presence in minuscule amounts as you do. if you believe that you are detecting it to such a significant degree then that is your prerogative. i find your obsession with it a bit "fringe" based on my own listening experience but maybe your hearing is more attuned to its presence than mine. i think we should agree to disagree on this one.

 

ps i don't think that anyone has described the th900 as having "bloated" bass. i know that i haven't as i'm yet to hear it. however, the frequency response measurements indicate that it has more bass presence than the d7000 that's all.

Don't worry about it. I'm not trying to convince you of anything as my post wasn't necessarily directed to you. My response was more to those who were trying to understand why the TH900's bass sounded more tame than the D7000's bass, despite it (TH900) measuring significantly higher in bass frequency response (which usually results in more bloated sounding bass.) My subjective observation of the TH900's bass corroborates those of many others: the TH900's bass sounds more cleaner, faster, tighter, and less ever-present than the TH900's bass. I am simply trying to point out that one possible explanation for this is the higher bass distortion of the D7000. (I am actually talking to others, not you in the last sentence, so feel free to ignore it).

Quote:

Originally Posted by dw1narso 

 

Wow...Purin, looks like HP1000 is still a technology marvel... even by today's standard.... :) no wonder it is still very difficult to find an used one... :)

(I haven't check your plotting thread for a long time...)

 

EDIT: I did not check that TH900 has even lower D2 and D3 :), it is today's marvel.. :)

Yeah, I haven't been updating the CSD plot thread for some time. Too much of a hassle for me to organize things so most of my measurements are somewhere else on the Internet. I'll occasionally drop by for a drive-by shooting now and then. 

The HP1000 is still very nice and performs exceptionally once you get past its somewhat thick sounding bass (some people actually prefer it). With the TH900 (assuming you can get over it's U-curve), the HP1000 is starting to lose its luster a bit though.

My Fostex Kotori 201 (I have a second pair for sale brand new and for cheap, right now on the ForSale forum) has a similar driver and probably sound too, based off what I could first hear with my Kotori 201 and then read that was similar about the TH900. Highly performing headphones that are capable of giving you a lot of bass on the measurement sheets, but that reveals itself to be a musically rich bass that remains as transparent as a clear window, for every genres and songs.

I also felt like it took down a bit of the luster my HP2 had, actually! and that the real TH900 would put it to shame in areas such as extension and bass.

Quote:

Originally Posted by purrin 

 

Don't worry about it. I'm not trying to convince you of anything as my post wasn't necessarily directed to you. My response was more to those who were trying to understand why the TH900's bass sounded more tame than the D7000's bass, despite it (TH900) measuring significantly higher in bass frequency response (which usually results in more bloated sounding bass.) My subjective observation of the TH900's bass corroborates those of many others: the TH900's bass sounds more cleaner, faster, tighter, and less ever-present than the TH900's bass. I am simply trying to point out that one possible explanation for this is the higher bass distortion of the D7000. (I am actually talking to others, not you in the last sentence, so feel free to ignore it).

come on purrin, you quoted my post and wrote "(I think you have some grasp, but not a good understanding)". i think it's fair to assume that your comment was directed at me and it did follow on from an exchange of posts that we'd been having. but hey, no biggie. i'm hoping to audition the th900 next week.

Sorry, I meant my post wasn't necessarily directed just to you. I hope that clarifies things. I wouldn't have bothered if it was just to you because it was already clear what your position was - and also it would have been pointless as you lack any substantial exposure to any of the headphones or the specific types of distortion measurements which were being discussed.
 

i was discussing the frequency response and thd measurements for the th900 and d7000 with you, which i have read and understand. however, i've also heard the d7000 which informed my comments. i regard that as "substantial exposure" for the purpose of our discussion and disagreement.  

Three and a half things: 1) You've never heard the TH900; 2) Your comments on the D7000 on "not sounding noticeably thick, muddy, or tonally indistinct" would seem to indicate a lack of experience with other headphones with better quality bass (also, you've indicated that you haven't heard the D7000 in a while); 3) I've never posted THD measurements per se (the measurements I posted do not plot THD).

Therefore how can you claim to have substantial exposure for the purposes of this discussion if you only have a passing familiarity with one headphone, no familiarity with the other, and no familiarity with any of the measurement visualizations?