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post #1126 of 7585

Thanks Muppetface for your impressions comparing the R10's and the TH900.

I do agree that the bass  light R10 is better for classical and vocal, it makes you more involved

may be because of the laid back mid of the TH900 causes that.

With the bass heavy R10 I still think the bass response of the R10 is better ,

TH900 may be better in term of soundstage and imaging.

I am listening the takeT H2+ at the moment and I think it has the best soundstage and imaging

(with BATPURE on or not does not make much difference to me ).   I also find out that I have to use the

best jumper cable on TR2 and that can make a lot of difference in the performance of the takeT H2+.

After I used the Nordost valhalla the soundstage, resolution, treble and bass extension are much improved

but the sound may be too thin.  I stepped up a notch to use the NBS jumper cable (less expensive than

the Valhalla) now I am very satisfied as the sound becomes full with the widest and best soundstage,

best bass response.

I think it is the same level as the T2 + SR009, O2mkI or Aristaeus + HE90  but different flavour.

post #1127 of 7585
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Modwright01 View Post

Thanks Muppet Face for everything !

 

So, about I read, the R10 is still "one of the best" headphones. 

 

And something impressive is the R10 is  more than twenty years old and it can be still one of the best, and can be compared to a high end 2012 dynamic headphones.

 

So, that is just an amazing tour de force.

 

Anyway, the TH900 seems to be not the R10 killer I waited, especially considering i am listening classical around 80% of time.. 

 

I am still waiting to read a review about  dynamic headphones where lot of people will write the same sentence : these headphones are BETTER than R10 on every plans. :)

 

 

I did say the R10 was a very impressive---downright exquisite---headphone. But then I also said the R10 was overrated in my opinion and that I felt it wasn't worth the expense for most people.

 

In truth there hasn't been much "improvement" in the world of audio, and I think a lot of vintage gear still holds its own compared to stuff being made in the last few years. Take the Grado HP1000 for instance: it sounds more accurate and measures better than a lot of headphones you can buy today, and that was made by someone working out of their house in the late 80s. Coming from a different direction, the R10 was truly a magnificent creation, and prior to its existence I don't think anything remotely like it had been done before in the world of headphones. Sony showed just what they were capable of when they pulled out all of the stops and created something without the usual financial restraints of corporate enterprise. It was something of a Concord moment for head-fiers. 

 

The unfortunate reality however is that the R10's legendary reputation has done more harm than good: it's given people unrealistic expectations which inevitably lead to disappointment, and it's driven the price up over the years from the original MSRP of $4,000 USD to around $6,000 - 7,000 USD. So we're left with a rather troubling combination of prices that continue to climb and physical condition which continues to deteriorate. This is a problem with most vintage gear, but seldom does one find such an extreme example of high prices and susceptibility to wear. I'm not talking about outright failure, as I think these claims are a bit exaggerated, but I suspect many R10s past a certain point have some level of internal wear which directly impacts their sound. The end result is that metaphorical crapshoot I referred to in a previous post: when you buy the R10 on the used market and pay out the wazoo, you have no real indication of what sort of frequency response they're going to have. The icing on the cake of course is that Sony no longer supports this product, and consequently there's no remotely easy or straightforward way to repair them should the need arise.

 

The TH900 isn't an R10 killer first and foremost because it's just a very different headphone. In terms of their technical capabilities, I feel they both have their own strengths and weaknesses, and from that standpoint I don't think one is necessarily better than the other. Like I tell people time and again: it really depends on what you're looking for personally. A yacht isn't always the best choice over a supercar for everyone. On the other hand I do think the TH900 shares certain positive attributes with the R10, enough to where I'd suggest people interested in the R10 who are reluctant to invest in one try to audition the TH900 if possible.


Edited by MuppetFace - 6/29/12 at 8:57am
post #1128 of 7585
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by kiertijai View Post

Thanks Muppetface for your impressions comparing the R10's and the TH900.

I do agree that the bass  light R10 is better for classical and vocal, it makes you more involved

may be because of the laid back mid of the TH900 causes that.

With the bass heavy R10 I still think the bass response of the R10 is better ,

TH900 may be better in term of soundstage and imaging.

I am listening the takeT H2+ at the moment and I think it has the best soundstage and imaging

(with BATPURE on or not does not make much difference to me ).   I also find out that I have to use the

best jumper cable on TR2 and that can make a lot of difference in the performance of the takeT H2+.

After I used the Nordost valhalla the soundstage, resolution, treble and bass extension are much improved

but the sound may be too thin.  I stepped up a notch to use the NBS jumper cable (less expensive than

the Valhalla) now I am very satisfied as the sound becomes full with the widest and best soundstage,

best bass response.

I think it is the same level as the T2 + SR009, O2mkI or Aristaeus + HE90  but different flavour.

 

I'm a big fan of the TakeT H2+ as well, and I'd say it's one of my all time favorite headphones. I feel it has some of the best bass I've ever heard in headphones, and it's imaging and sense of presence is just incredible. I would rank it alongside the high-end Stax in terms of its abilities.

post #1129 of 7585
Quote:
Originally Posted by MuppetFace View Post

 

I'm a big fan of the TakeT H2+ as well, and I'd say it's one of my all time favorite headphones. I feel it has some of the best bass I've ever heard in headphones, and it's imaging and sense of presence is just incredible. I would rank it alongside the high-end Stax in terms of its abilities.


I really wish I had a pair of the TakeT... I've never heard it.

post #1130 of 7585

Thanks for the comparison between the R10 and TH900 MuppetFace, very informative. I'm interested in the TH9000 but it's steep price makes me a bit cautious until I can read some informative comparisons before I make a decison. I agree with what you have said about the R10, it is indeed an awesome set of cans as I love the pair that I currently own. It is however a bit overhyped and definitely overpriced, as good as the R10 sounds and as rare as it is I won't pay some to the crazy prices they're being asked for. The R10 is definitely not a laid back or warm sounding set of cans, even when paired with the right solid state or tube amp with NOS tubes they still sound too bright with certain recordings or genres.


Edited by warubozu - 6/29/12 at 1:00pm
post #1131 of 7585
Quote:
Originally Posted by MuppetFace View Post

 

... In truth there hasn't been much "improvement" in the world of audio, and I think a lot of vintage gear still holds its own compared to stuff being made in the last few years. Take the Grado HP1000 for instance: it sounds more accurate and measures better than a lot of headphones you can buy today, and that was made by someone working out of their house in the late 80s. Coming from a different direction, the R10 was truly a magnificent creation, and prior to its existence I don't think anything remotely like it had been done before in the world of headphones. Sony showed just what they were capable of when they pulled out all of the stops and created something without the usual financial restraints of corporate enterprise. It was something of a Concord moment for head-fiers...

 

 

i do wonder how far dynamic headphones have come when headphones like the hp1000, r10 and the k1000, are still regarded as the benchmarks by which, the current sota dynamics such as the hd800 will be judged. does the hp1000 and r10 do better at striking the right balance between technical proficiency and musicality, than the latest generation of highly resolving flagships?


Edited by shimmer n roar - 6/30/12 at 4:15am
post #1132 of 7585
Quote:
Originally Posted by shimmer n roar View Post

i do wonder how far dynamic headphones have come when headphones like the hp1000, r10 and the k1000, are still regarded as the benchmarks by which, the current sota dynamics such as the hd800 will be judged. does the hp1000 and r10 do better at striking the right balance between technical proficiency and musicality, than the latest generation of highly resolving flagships?

 

Disclaimer: I have never heard any of the current, so talked highly resolving flagships.

 

HP1000 is very balanced, proficient, and musical. I finally figured out how to properly adjust its headband, and I simply can't find any flaws in its sound anymore.

 

But I have no experience with other headphones, again :/

 

So!.. Just my two cents to take with a grain of salt


Edited by devouringone3 - 6/30/12 at 7:06am
post #1133 of 7585

@ muppetface, how do the highs of the th900 compare to the w3000anv? i seem to recall purrin describing the w3000anv's treble presentation as smoother. do you hear them similarly? and while i'm at it, smile.gif how does the w3000anv compare to the r10? i also seem to recall purrin noticing some similarities between the two but i could be completely mistaken about that.

post #1134 of 7585
Quote:
Originally Posted by shimmer n roar View Post

 

i do wonder how far dynamic headphones have come when headphones like the hp1000, r10 and the k1000, are still regarded as the benchmarks by which, the current sota dynamics such as the hd800 will be judged. does the hp1000 and r10 do better at striking the right balance between technical proficiency and musicality, than the latest generation of highly resolving flagships?

 

It's a good point, but I don't believe it is entirely a limitation of what the dynamic transducer is capable of, rather it has more to do with the companies producing the headphones. The problem I see is that most companies have not put in the time nor innovation to improve, rather have aimed to hit that sweet point between research/development costs and marketing. The mentioned strongest previous contenders have actually stopped producing true flagships (Joseph Grado, AKG, Sony). Companies like ATH and Grado who basically produce the same headphone over and over in limited/new bodies are really hurting the industry imo.

 

Sennheiser is the only company  that has been able to keep pushing forward and the hd800 represents that very well. While it is not perfect nor replaces the previous top models, it has stepped into the right direction pushing the boundaries and coming up with new ways of making true dynamic transducers better. Seeing how successful the hd800 has already been (over 12,000 have sold last I checked?). Sennheiser's next flagship may be the one to finally put the vintage gear to rest. In the very least we can expect that they have the team to eventually make such a headphone.

 

The good news is that companies like Audeze, Stax and Hifiman while not dynamic are creating innovative products that have already caught up to the original flagships. The sr009 being the first product in many years to be majority crowned king is also a very good step for our community and interests in pursuing audio-perfecton.

 
 
 

Edited by Chefguru - 6/30/12 at 8:26am
post #1135 of 7585
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chefguru View Post

 

It's a good point, but I don't believe it is entirely a limitation of what the dynamic transducer is capable of, rather it has more to do with the companies producing the headphones. The problem I see is that most companies have not put in the time nor innovation to improve, rather have aimed to hit that sweet point between research/development costs and marketing. The mentioned strongest previous contenders have actually stopped producing true flagships (Joseph Grado, AKG, Sony). Companies like ATH and Grado who basically produce the same headphone over and over in limited/new bodies are really hurting the industry imo.

 

Sennheiser is the only company  that has been able to keep pushing forward and the hd800 represents that very well. While it is not perfect nor replaces the previous top models, it has stepped into the right direction pushing the boundaries and coming up with new ways of making true dynamic transducers better. Seeing how successful the hd800 has already been (over 12,000 have sold last I checked?). Sennheiser's next flagship may be the one to finally put the vintage gear to rest. In the very least we can expect that they have the team to eventually make such a headphone.

 

The good news is that companies like Audeze, Stax and Hifiman while not dynamic are creating innovative products that have already caught up to the original flagships. The sr009 being the first product in many years to be majority crowned king is also a very good step for our community and interests in pursuing audio-perfecton.

 
 
 

 

I disagree with a few of your points.

 

Audio-Technica's wooden headphones aren't hurting the industry in my opinion. They're too much of a niche product within an already niche market, and the vast majority of them aren't even sold outside of Japan. Secondly they're actually not "the same headphone" in different clothes. The drivers are similar, and in some cases may even be the same from one to another, but they are tuned quite differently in some cases. Compare the W1000X to the W3000ANV for example and this should be pretty evident. Same with Grado: compare the RS-1 and the PS-1 or PS1000. The same headphone? Hardly. If there's one thing Grado Labs can be faulted with concerning the industry today, it's fixed pricing. Sennheiser is guilty of this too however.

 

Speaking of Sennheiser, I'd actually say they're doing more to hurt the industry than Audio-Technica or Grado. The HD800 has a lot of genuine R&D invested in its design, but it's focused on specific areas like detail retrieval and not an overall holistic approach like their past flagships, the HE60 and HE90. The HD800 is technically a very impressive headphone, and in some respects its able to stand up to the best of the electrostatics, but without further modifications it's simply not an enjoyable listen in my opinion. Obviously that's a matter of taste, but I think it's symptomatic of the industry today: a fixation on detail and that "hi fi" sound (ie. sparkly, bright treble) that emphasizes said detail. They've since raised the price on the HD800 and subsequently made the HD700 to fill the gap between it and the HD650, a purposefully under-achieving product that seems to be the result of design by a committee and shows more of a concern for marketing than genuine innovation.

 

As for those other smaller companies you mentioned, I agree that they're doing good work. Their innovations aren't all that new however, and in the case of Audez'e and HiFiMan, they're pretty much re-kindling interest in orthodynamic technology that has been around for quite a while. It was there for the taking, just asking for someone to come along and put it to good use, and frankly it's a bit puzzling as to why companies hadn't done so until now. As for Stax, they've been doing their thing consistently for decades. The SR-009 is truly a marvel of engineering and anal attention to detail, but it's not that much of a leap from the SR-007 and SR-Omega before it. The problem has classically been that Stax was never an industry leader like Sennheiser, never in that sort of position and never able to dictate any industry trends because they too are a niche within a niche. That's why they don't spend anything on marketing: they don't need to. Their customer base is small and consistent. This may change in the future though now that they've been acquired by a larger Chinese firm; it'll be interesting to see how that impacts the industry as a whole.

 

Most of the real innovation in the world of fullsized headphones these days seems to be carried out by smaller companies that go largely unnoticed. Precide and TakeT are two such examples. Also the world of portable audio and IEMs is seeing some genuine innovation, and in terms of progress I think more headway is being made there than in the fullsized arena. I think companies like Grado and Audio-Technica aren't really hurting the industry by comparison, but are mostly stagnant at this point. It's companies like Sennheiser that are doing more harm I think in that they actually have the capacity to effect the industry as a whole and are prioritizing the wrong things these days. The sad part is, unlike the Monsters and Fanny Wangs of the world, Sennheiser and Sony were once capable of great things but have instead slid into mediocrity. This seems to be symptomatic of the rise in popularity of headphones in general. As more people become accepting of spending large sums on these goods and head-fi becomes more "mainstream," we're going to inevitably see a rise in marketing and gimmicks as priorities among corporations.


Edited by MuppetFace - 6/30/12 at 9:25am
post #1136 of 7585
Quote:
Originally Posted by MuppetFace View Post

Most of the real innovation in the world of fullsized headphones these days seems to be carried out by smaller companies that go largely unnoticed. Precide and TakeT are two such examples. Also the world of portable audio and IEMs is seeing some genuine innovation, and in terms of progress I think more headway is being made there than in the fullsized arena. I think companies like Grado and Audio-Technica aren't really hurting the industry by comparison, but are mostly stagnant at this point. It's companies like Sennheiser that are doing more harm I think in that they actually have the capacity to effect the industry as a whole and are prioritizing the wrong things these days. The sad part is, unlike the Monsters and Fanny Wangs of the world, Sennheiser and Sony were once capable of great things but have instead slid into mediocrity. This seems to be symptomatic of the rise in popularity of headphones in general. As more people become accepting of spending large sums on these goods and head-fi becomes more "mainstream," we're going to inevitably see a rise in marketing and gimmicks as priorities among corporations.

 

Excellent points! I agree pretty much entirely. IMO most of what Sennheiser has released lately have been rather cynical products (Amperior, HD700) designed to hit price points, not to sound good. I'd really like to see what a flagship ortho from Sennheiser or Sony would look like.

post #1137 of 7585
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chefguru View Post

 

It's a good point, but I don't believe it is entirely a limitation of what the dynamic transducer is capable of, rather it has more to do with the companies producing the headphones. The problem I see is that most companies have not put in the time nor innovation to improve, rather have aimed to hit that sweet point between research/development costs and marketing. The mentioned strongest previous contenders have actually stopped producing true flagships (Joseph Grado, AKG, Sony). Companies like ATH and Grado who basically produce the same headphone over and over in limited/new bodies are really hurting the industry imo.

 

Sennheiser is the only company  that has been able to keep pushing forward and the hd800 represents that very well. While it is not perfect nor replaces the previous top models, it has stepped into the right direction pushing the boundaries and coming up with new ways of making true dynamic transducers better. Seeing how successful the hd800 has already been (over 12,000 have sold last I checked?). Sennheiser's next flagship may be the one to finally put the vintage gear to rest. In the very least we can expect that they have the team to eventually make such a headphone.

 

The good news is that companies like Audeze, Stax and Hifiman while not dynamic are creating innovative products that have already caught up to the original flagships. The sr009 being the first product in many years to be majority crowned king is also a very good step for our community and interests in pursuing audio-perfecton.

 
 
 

 

Please, don't forget Jecklin Float!

 

The legend Jecklin Float is back again!

http://www.quad-musik.de/html/jecklin1.html

 

http://avguide.ch/magazin/der-neue-float-juerg-jecklin-bringt-einen-neuen-float

 

A german thread, but with some nice pics about

http://www.open-end-music.de/vb3/showthread.php?t=4455

post #1138 of 7585

sorry ... a double ...

post #1139 of 7585
Quote:
Originally Posted by FritzS View Post

Please, don't forget Jecklin Float!




The legend Jecklin Float is back again!
http://www.quad-musik.de/html/jecklin1.html

http://avguide.ch/magazin/der-neue-float-juerg-jecklin-bringt-einen-neuen-float

A german thread, but with some nice pics about
http://www.open-end-music.de/vb3/showthread.php?t=4455

Whoa those headphones look really interesting..
post #1140 of 7585
Quote:
Originally Posted by MuppetFace View Post
Speaking of Sennheiser, I'd actually say they're doing more to hurt the industry than Audio-Technica or Grado. The HD800 has a lot of genuine R&D invested in its design, but it's focused on specific areas like detail retrieval and not an overall holistic approach like their past flagships, the HE60 and HE90. The HD800 is technically a very impressive headphone, and in some respects its able to stand up to the best of the electrostatics, but without further modifications it's simply not an enjoyable listen in my opinion. Obviously that's a matter of taste, but I think it's symptomatic of the industry today: a fixation on detail and that "hi fi" sound (ie. sparkly, bright treble) that emphasizes said detail. They've since raised the price on the HD800 and subsequently made the HD700 to fill the gap between it and the HD650, a purposefully under-achieving product that seems to be the result of design by a committee and shows more of a concern for marketing than genuine innovation.

QFT.

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