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Fostex TH900 Impressions & Discussion Thread - Page 694

post #10396 of 10409
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sonic Defender View Post
 


It would be great if there was a stock TH900 there. To me, the problem with mods is that nobody has accurate audio memory in the way we discuss here; at best it is vague and you might remember some general things, big bass, hot treble etc. There is no way on earth you can confidently remember the sound signature of something days and weeks since last hearing it. We can assume we do, but we don't, it isn't like how memory for voices is encoded at all. So once somebody sends their headphone away, waits weeks for the mod and then gets it back it makes me wonder how they can be so sure of the results?

 

Don't get me wrong, I'm quite sure the mods change the sound signature, that isn't up for debate at all. I just wonder how it is that the mods are always judged as positive when simple probability suggests that is unlikely to be the case. I've never heard anybody say the mod didn't sound better. That is why I would love to hear the results of some blind listening comparisons against a stock TH900. I'm not trying to be an ass, and I have no doubt that people can hear differences and even prefer them, I just wonder how accurate the memory they compare against really is. 

 

That is entirely reasonable. I've probably built up a bunch of expectation bias while ordering all the parts working on these mods. I would love to pit these against someone else's stock TH900. Also, I did not find the two iterations of the mod I've done better in every way. The first time, I felt like the mids were a little too forward; the second (current) time, my first impression was that the mids were a wee bit hollow and shouty. These concerns eventually became non-issues with some brain burn-in.

post #10397 of 10409
Quote:
Originally Posted by stjj89 View Post
 

 

That is entirely reasonable. I've probably built up a bunch of expectation bias while ordering all the parts working on these mods. I would love to pit these against someone else's stock TH900. Also, I did not find the two iterations of the mod I've done better in every way. The first time, I felt like the mids were a little too forward; the second (current) time, my first impression was that the mids were a wee bit hollow and shouty. These concerns eventually became non-issues with some brain burn-in.


Cool, glad you didn't take it the wrong way. I like conversing with people who know how to take other people without feeling attacked by them. You handled what sometimes triggers a flame war very graciously.

post #10398 of 10409
Not so much mod related, but different dac/amps make a difference to my ears, so why not mods?

If I hated and remember hating something about a headphone... that's no longer present due to a change in hardware... my views most likely didn't change, the sound did.

Going back and listening to a headphone that I disliked on the old gear... confirms what I recall hating about it. Swap to the new gear again— it's gone.

I can't speak for others, but for me personally the way I hear something is always the same. My first impressions of a headphone, dac, amp, etc. all seem to be the final impressions. I don't try to convince myself to like anything I don't. Hype is all hype. Results are another thing entirely.

It's much easier for me to remember things I dislike in comparison to what I actually liked. My OCD has me hyperfocus on whatever little aspect it is that's bothering me. I never forget it either.

My current headphone, an Ultrasone Signature Pro, leaves the impression of being only slightly annoyed with it's 2.5mm connector and some of my music is limited by it's width/depth (closed back design). I'd more likely buy a pair of open back headphones and that aspect would improve, but everything else might be less enjoyable. For now I'll just listen to more dynamic music through my active monitors. I don't even feel the want to buy another headphone.

I was initially planning on buying a TH900 sometime, but I think I'll skip it entirely. wink.gif
post #10399 of 10409
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sonic Defender View Post
 


Cool, glad you didn't take it the wrong way. I like conversing with people who know how to take other people without feeling attacked by them. You handled what sometimes triggers a flame war very graciously.

 

post #10400 of 10409
Quote:
Originally Posted by stjj89 View Post
 

 


LOL

post #10401 of 10409
Quote:
Originally Posted by socks mk2 View Post

Not so much mod related, but different dac/amps make a difference to my ears, so why not mods?

If I hated and remember hating something about a headphone... that's no longer present due to a change in hardware... my views most likely didn't change, the sound did.

Going back and listening to a headphone that I disliked on the old gear... confirms what I recall hating about it. Swap to the new gear again— it's gone.

I can't speak for others, but for me personally the way I hear something is always the same. My first impressions of a headphone, dac, amp, etc. all seem to be the final impressions. I don't try to convince myself to like anything I don't. Hype is all hype. Results are another thing entirely.

It's much easier for me to remember things I dislike in comparison to what I actually liked. My OCD has me hyperfocus on whatever little aspect it is that's bothering me. I never forget it either.

My current headphone, an Ultrasone Signature Pro, leaves the impression of being only slightly annoyed with it's 2.5mm connector and some of my music is limited by it's width/depth (closed back design). I'd more likely buy a pair of open back headphones and that aspect would improve, but everything else might be less enjoyable. For now I'll just listen to more dynamic music through my active monitors. I don't even feel the want to buy another headphone.

I was initially planning on buying a TH900 sometime, but I think I'll skip it entirely. wink.gif


Were not talking about people who know they don't like a headphone; just the opposite, we're talking about people who like it so much they are spending even more to tweak the sound signature. Somewhat related to what your are discussing, but still different enough at the same time.

post #10402 of 10409
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sonic Defender View Post


Were not talking about people who know they don't like a headphone; just the opposite, we're talking about people who like it so much they are spending even more to tweak the sound signature. Somewhat related to what your are discussing, but still different enough at the same time.
I don't see the difference to be honest.

Hypothetical: I didn't know I liked X headphone until I tried it on Y gear because on Z gear it was awful. I didn't know I liked X earpads on Y headphone because on Z headphone it was awful.

If you buy larger pads to increase soundstage— the sound stage increases while everything else stays enjoyable— success, no?

If you replace the cable to shorten decay— decay is shortened while everything else stays enjoyable— success, no?

If you like your TH900 so much, modding it wouldn't come to mind. If your modded TH900 is more enjoyable than the stock TH900, you dislike (something about) the stock TH900. It's the same thing worded differently.

I like X more is the same as I like Y less. I dislike X less is the same as I dislike Y more.

I don't mean to take away from your statement and/or discussion. This is just how I've interpreted it and thus I'm explaining why I've come to that conclusion. Cheers.
post #10403 of 10409
I think it's a bit different because your are making small sonic changes. It's a bit different than comparing 2 different headphones with 2 different sound sig. That's my interpretation anyway.
post #10404 of 10409
Sticking with my cable replacement statement to shorten decay: If the headphone itself was too slow (laid back) to keep up with your music, but now it can— wouldn't that be such a difference to say it's much preferable because it can keep up and you hear the entirety of the track?

If the sound stage was too small to the extent that individual instruments were being drowned out, but different earpads resolve that— wouldn't that make alternative pads preferable 10/10 times if that's all you were wanting more or felt the headphone was lacking in?

Edit: I don't think you would need to hear them side by side or A/B to know what was missing before is now present.

Again, this is just me thinking out loud in a sense. No pressure to agree with me.
Edited by socks mk2 - Today at 5:03 pm
post #10405 of 10409
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sonic Defender View Post
 

Don't get me wrong, I'm quite sure the mods change the sound signature, that isn't up for debate at all. I just wonder how it is that the mods are always judged as positive when simple probability suggests that is unlikely to be the case. I've never heard anybody say the mod didn't sound better. That is why I would love to hear the results of some blind listening comparisons against a stock TH900. I'm not trying to be an ass, and I have no doubt that people can hear differences and even prefer them, I just wonder how accurate the memory they compare against really is. 

Not to throw fuel on the fire, but something like this doesn't exactly fall under "simple probability." If people were doing different mods or variations on a mod, then yeah, that would definitely make sense. But in this case someone already went through a ton of testing to achieve the desired results. Even if the people who buy the mod can't pinpoint exactly WHAT has improved, the improvements were designed to "refine" the stock sound, ie. improve what makes the TH900 already great.

 

But yeah, I'd certainly want to hear the difference firsthand before plunking down that much cash. :tongue_smile:

post #10406 of 10409
Quote:
Originally Posted by Levaix View Post
 

Not to throw fuel on the fire, but something like this doesn't exactly fall under "simple probability." If people were doing different mods or variations on a mod, then yeah, that would definitely make sense. But in this case someone already went through a ton of testing to achieve the desired results. Even if the people who buy the mod can't pinpoint exactly WHAT has improved, the improvements were designed to "refine" the stock sound, ie. improve what makes the TH900 already great.

 

But yeah, I'd certainly want to hear the difference firsthand before plunking down that much cash. :tongue_smile:


I get you, but that is still one person doing the testing, probability still suggests that this person will not be exactly representative of everybody.

post #10407 of 10409
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sonic Defender View Post
 


It would be great if there was a stock TH900 there. To me, the problem with mods is that nobody has accurate audio memory in the way we discuss here; at best it is vague and you might remember some general things, big bass, hot treble etc. There is no way on earth you can confidently remember the sound signature of something days and weeks since last hearing it. We can assume we do, but we don't, it isn't like how memory for voices is encoded at all. So once somebody sends their headphone away, waits weeks for the mod and then gets it back it makes me wonder how they can be so sure of the results?

 

Don't get me wrong, I'm quite sure the mods change the sound signature, that isn't up for debate at all. I just wonder how it is that the mods are always judged as positive when simple probability suggests that is unlikely to be the case. I've never heard anybody say the mod didn't sound better. That is why I would love to hear the results of some blind listening comparisons against a stock TH900. I'm not trying to be an ass, and I have no doubt that people can hear differences and even prefer them, I just wonder how accurate the memory they compare against really is. 

 

 

Well, in your post your assume it takes weeks or days to do a mod. Not so. Some mods, like changing material, earpads, etc are instant. I ordered a level 2 lawton kit and tried each part of the mod independently.  I also started to use a frequency response sweep "drawing" to illustrate what the headphones sound like to me (mainly to identify spikes/dips and bass extension) with each mod.

 

As for why mods are always positive - because no one posts about their crappy mods. Isn't that obvious? I tried 4 different materials to fill in the cups for my modded TH900s and they were all inferior to the stock material (they made them sound worse). But I'm not going to post that! Only success stories are newsworthy... even though I did find the Lawton angle pads had a horrible effect on sub bass, as detailed here...

 

http://www.head-fi.org/t/762452/my-mod-in-progress-fostex-th900-lawton-norne

 

As for comparison vs stock... well...

 

 

 

 

Once I'm done modding, I will post on the sound modded vs stock. Then again, one must be mindful of the purpose of a mod. I think a lot of people here have sought to increase mids/vocals, and have been successful. Personally, I am seeking mainly to neutralize the signature (make all frequencies equally loud) as much as possible, EXCEPT for slight increase in bass below 100 Hz. That is my personal goal.

 

I must note, that even a model to model comparison may not be exact. I have not gone back to my notes on my modded TH900s, but I believe that the treble spikes are not in the exact same frequencies for the models I have. so while the general sound signature is quite "TH900" individual models may have their own sound which makes general comparison difficult, other than broad strokes.

post #10408 of 10409
Quote:
Originally Posted by Whazzzup View Post

I really hesitate to reply but I will as I think this thread needs some relief from this.
1) I never replied to you, it was to sonic defender. I'm trying to avoid any replies or reference to up late.
2) it was not defensive in the least, only explaining that my post wasn't that in the least and why I brought up the informative and interesting topic in the first place. Here is my post again. That you are eluding to." Well folks seem my reply, as open and non confrontational as stated was some definitive opinion. May i suggest a long read on the chord threads from the desighner as to see the explanations of archetecure and thoughts beyound on seperats. They are not the only company pursuing said desighn and again this is just information and not confrontation."
3) I believe the topic has more than run its course and in the future you may consider not inquiring into a line of thought that you do not agree with or understand. Let it go another words. Just food for thought and apologize if my thoughts are not on point. I am finding th900 thread becoming exhaustive and I know I'm not alone in this regard.

sonic defender's reply to that post:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sonic Defender View Post

 I wasn't saying you were being confrontational, I was saying that I hoped what I wrote didn't seem confrontational. Cheers.

your claim that we both queried:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Whazzzup View Post

To add o this discussion I would consider chord, an excellent combo, in that there is no seperation of the dac and amp. It is one, never mind a physical seperation, as this according to the desighner, negativly effects sq. then again chord does not use chips either but fpga and taps. Separates inevitably degrade the quality of the note, but that has no bearing on what folks prefer, like, want. I still look to chord as one of my reference dac amp manufacturers and I use the seperation of dac amp as a visual understanding.

ok? now let's move on.
post #10409 of 10409
Quote:
Originally Posted by katulu View Post


Well, in your post your assume it takes weeks or days to do a mod. Not so. Some mods, like changing material, earpads, etc are instant. I ordered a level 2 lawton kit and tried each part of the mod independently.  I also started to use a frequency response sweep "drawing" to illustrate what the headphones sound like to me (mainly to identify spikes/dips and bass extension) with each mod.

As for why mods are always positive - because no one posts about their crappy mods. Isn't that obvious? I tried 4 different materials to fill in the cups for my modded TH900s and they were all inferior to the stock material (they made them sound worse). But I'm not going to post that! Only success stories are newsworthy... even though I did find the Lawton angle pads had a horrible effect on sub bass, as detailed here...

http://www.head-fi.org/t/762452/my-mod-in-progress-fostex-th900-lawton-norne

As for comparison vs stock... well...






Once I'm done modding, I will post on the sound modded vs stock. Then again, one must be mindful of the purpose of a mod. I think a lot of people here have sought to increase mids/vocals, and have been successful. Personally, I am seeking mainly to neutralize the signature (make all frequencies equally loud) as much as possible, EXCEPT for slight increase in bass below 100 Hz. That is my personal goal.

I must note, that even a model to model comparison may not be exact. I have not gone back to my notes on my modded TH900s, but I believe that the treble spikes are not in the exact same frequencies for the models I have. so while the general sound signature is quite "TH900" individual models may have their own sound which makes general comparison difficult, other than broad strokes.

like sonic defender said, auditory memory can be unreliable. ideally an a/b comparison of a modded and stock th900 should take no longer than quickly switching cans (and conducted as a blind test to try to remove confirmation bias).
Edited by up late - Today at 10:38 pm
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