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Crossfeed & Crosstalk SPL Phonitor

post #1 of 14
2/5/12 at 4:58pm
Thread Starter 

Hi all, I'm a bit confused with some audio concept so I thought to write this post in order for the Head fi community to give their opinion.

I've recently purchased a SPL Phonitor and I can't be more happy with this amp. Simple put, is the best audio equipment that I ever have and definitely a light years improvement to my Stello HP100 and Musical Fidelity X-Can V8. Please don't misunderstands me. Those 2 headphones amp are pretty good and I've surely enjoin them in the past. But the Phonitor is simple in a different league. The neutrality, balance, detail and power (but in a extremely gentle way) this amp delivered are amazing. Now I'm only waiting for my HD800 to arrived!

Anyway, the reason why I'm writing this post is about the Crossfeed feature available in an extremely complex and detail way on the SPL Phonitor. The amount of different settings to choose are quite impressive. As I understand (and please correct me if wrong) what the Crossfeed processing is meant for, is to give a "Speaker/Natural" listening experience when using headphones that it claims also to reduce fatigue at the same time. But, and here is the point, didn't speaker suffer for what is call crosstalk, which is defined for many (including lab professors and engineers) as an undesired phenomenon of the speakers design in which the sound wave that comes from one speaker (right or left) can be hear by the opposite ear (right or left)  making impossible for the listener to have a correct imaging of the sound, that is been able to locate in a 3d space where a particular sound came from?  So if crosstalk is something that many are been trying to eliminate in the speakers design ( I've read somewhere about a Polk audio speaker system that does it) why many manufactures of Headphones Amplifier includes Crossfeed in their designs?

I have always been fascinated with the sound that you can get by using Headphones. I have always preferred their sound and detail compared to loudspeakers. And I'm totally used to that sound. That is what to me feels natural. I've been using the Phonitor for quite sometime now, and I've been playing with the crossfeed setting allot. I must say it is a totally new sound and I've been trying to convince myself that it must be good based on the cost of the Phonitor in relation with the Auditor. Simple, so far I can not say if enabling crossfeed is better or not. I can only say is different.

So as you can see, I'm may be a bit confused, any comments will be appreciated!

 

cheers!

 

jark


Edited by jark - 2/5/12 at 5:14pm
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post #2 of 14
2/5/12 at 6:08pm

Is possible to get the correct imaging of the sound from your speakers ( the speaker crossover take care of some of the sound waves aspects, and this without getting into room correction, acoustic problems, or real world spaces issues). You just need to stay in one place and not to move your head. With hps on your head is more simple to do so, because the sound imaging is fixed. The Phonitor use technique called M/S to create what you call crosstalk.

 

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by bizkid View Post

Let me explain some of the technical stuff it contains:

The +-60V SUPRA OP amps inside are developded by SPL and used in their mastering grade hardware. Their EQs using the same OPamps range from 4000 to 10000 Euro, they are also used in their mastering consoles which go for around 20000 Euro. If im not wrong Bob Ludwig is using a console from SPL for example. Their mastering hardware is so widely used it doesnt make sense to start listing engineers.
Nine of these OP amps are used in the phonitor. SPL claims the phonitor offers a SNR of 116dB + 34dB headroom = 150dB dynamic range. More than any source will deliver.

You should check out the pictures mentioned in the PDF above. It's gorgeous

Now the most interesting thing about the Phonitor, besides the crossover is the "center level" feature. This can help to tune headphones to taste.
We all know the problem. Compared to speakers, headphones in general have the middle (in soundstage) too upfront, easily heard in vocals and drums.
The Phonitor is using a technic called M/S where you seperate the signal not into left/right, but into mono sum/stereo sum signals. That means the volume can be lowered ONLY for the middle signal without affecting the sides. You can turn down the mono volume from 0,3dB to 2,0dB. That helps nicely to give vocals, bass and drums some needed distance when listening to headphones.

Probably most people (me included) are used to listen to headphones the way they are, nevertheless i especially found that feature very nice and usefull.


 

 

 

SPL M/S Master tool,

 

MSMaster_web_1500.jpg

 

http://spl.info/en/hardware/signal-processors/ms-master/in-detail.html


Edited by Acix - 2/5/12 at 8:46pm
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post #3 of 14
2/5/12 at 7:06pm

 

This video explain in great details about the Phonitor unique features.
 

 

basshead.gif


Edited by Acix - 2/6/12 at 5:47am
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post #4 of 14
2/5/12 at 9:29pm
Thread Starter 

Thanks Acix for your replies!, but I think that you are missing my point. Maybe I didn't explain myself well. Basically my impression is that for one side we have engineers trying to eliminate crosstalk on speaker, and in the other side we have engineers adding crossfeed into headphones amp in order to achieve a more "natural" speaker sound like...It seems a contradiction to me.

 

I'm not arguing the capabilities of the Phonitor. Actually I'm impress with the sound with or without crossfeed enable, as I said is by far the best audio equipment I have, and I'm very, very happy with it.

 

cheers!

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post #5 of 14
2/6/12 at 5:43am
Quote:
Originally Posted by jark View Post

Thanks Acix for your replies!, but I think that you are missing my point. Maybe I didn't explain myself well. Basically my impression is that for one side we have engineers trying to eliminate crosstalk on speaker, and in the other side we have engineers adding crossfeed into headphones amp in order to achieve a more "natural" speaker sound like...It seems a contradiction to me.

 

I'm not arguing the capabilities of the Phonitor. Actually I'm impress with the sound with or without crossfeed enable, as I said is by far the best audio equipment I have, and I'm very, very happy with it.

 

cheers!



Yes, sometimes looks like the whole existence in the third dimension is a contradiction... to make it simple, the two stereo speakers system is the standard for most of the audience as well for the the recording studios. The same two channels going into the hps to imitate speakers. But hps have their differences compare to speakers, and here the SPL guys helping us with the imaging control, and the M/S technique to bring the speakers sensation to the hps and by doing so to the reduce fatigue with hps.

There are a few methods that can reduce the crosstalk, but looks to me that those methods are still base on two stereo channels with a difference DSP editing to the stereo phase reflection.

Here is some of the crosstalk cancellation methods,

http://www.ambio4you.com/support/ambiotheory

http://www.ambiophonics.org/Tutorials/OneKey_1.html

Maybe the contradictions will marge in a positive one future, and this mean that those methods will implement in the music standard market... lol, do you like this happy ending?


Edited by Acix - 2/6/12 at 5:45am
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post #6 of 14
2/6/12 at 10:30am

This is one of the more interesting threads to read, even though it is fairly basic stuff about the phonitor. I do have a questions I would like to ask tough. It will probably start building my reputation as an AKG geek, but I find it a current issue of mine. I am currently looking to properly amp my K701s and I am set to order the Schiit Valhalla + Bifrost (which I will start a new thread about soon).

 

However, since I am considering moving up the ranks (thanks to Head-fi, costing me 1000 euros a month xD) with buying other reference headphones (keeping the K701s tough), would you suggest investing in the Phonitor, given that I would like my K701s driven well. Will it drive them good, since they can be fairly picky?

 

-AKG Geek :-P

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post #7 of 14
2/6/12 at 10:45am
Quote:
Originally Posted by mikiphile View Post

This is one of the more interesting threads to read, even though it is fairly basic stuff about the phonitor. I do have a questions I would like to ask tough. It will probably start building my reputation as an AKG geek, but I find it a current issue of mine. I am currently looking to properly amp my K701s and I am set to order the Schiit Valhalla + Bifrost (which I will start a new thread about soon).

 

However, since I am considering moving up the ranks (thanks to Head-fi, costing me 1000 euros a month xD) with buying other reference headphones (keeping the K701s tough), would you suggest investing in the Phonitor, given that I would like my K701s driven well. Will it drive them good, since they can be fairly picky?

 

-AKG Geek :-P



They are no picky in this combo... but first maybe you can try to hear the Phonitor with the K-701 to see if you like the sound. 

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post #8 of 14
2/6/12 at 11:17am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Acix View Post



They are no picky in this combo... but first maybe you can try to hear the Phonitor with the K-701 to see if you like the sound. 



Sorry, didnt get what you mean. You are trying to say that the Valhalla is good for the K701? - Anyways, Im considering the Phoitor anyway, due to future purchases. Or maybe even both, if a miracle happens soon financially.

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post #9 of 14
2/6/12 at 11:36am
Quote:
Originally Posted by mikiphile View Post



Sorry, didnt get what you mean. You are trying to say that the Valhalla is good for the K701? - Anyways, Im considering the Phoitor anyway, due to future purchases. Or maybe even both, if a miracle happens soon financially.



Sorry man, I don't know Valhalla ... what I meant, is the K702 is not picky with the Phonitor combo.

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post #10 of 14
2/6/12 at 1:07pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mikiphile View Post

This is one of the more interesting threads to read, even though it is fairly basic stuff about the phonitor. I do have a questions I would like to ask tough. It will probably start building my reputation as an AKG geek, but I find it a current issue of mine. I am currently looking to properly amp my K701s and I am set to order the Schiit Valhalla + Bifrost (which I will start a new thread about soon).

 

However, since I am considering moving up the ranks (thanks to Head-fi, costing me 1000 euros a month xD) with buying other reference headphones (keeping the K701s tough), would you suggest investing in the Phonitor, given that I would like my K701s driven well. Will it drive them good, since they can be fairly picky?

 

-AKG Geek :-P


Hi mikiphile, I do have the AKG K701 and I can tell you it have never ever sounds better. As I said at the beginning of the post I also own the X-Can V8 and a Stello HP100. Both made a good enough job on driving the K701, but nothing compared to what the Phonitor can do. Suddenly the K701 sort off open and reveal what they are capable. The dynamics improved amazingly!. Many people in this forum complaint about the K701, saying that is a very dull and flat headphone. Well now I know for sure they must simply driving it with the wrong amp. With the Phonitor, the bass reached very low notes and the treble shines. So, yes, I do recommend the Phonitor for the AKG K701. Plus, you where be able to drive also, more difficult Headphones, like the Hifiman HE6, T1 or make the HD800 shines!, so in a way you will cover your future purchase as well!. (I've have actually tested the Phonitor performance with all the headphones I've mentioned in my local store, here in Melbourne. Of all of those I was extremely impressed by the HD800 followed by the He6)

 

cheers!

 


Edited by jark - 2/6/12 at 1:12pm
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post #11 of 14
2/6/12 at 1:25pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jark View Post


in a way you will cover your future purchase as well!.


cheers!

 



I think this is the key here, but what is a headfier without the frustration of months / years of searching the right amp for his K70X.

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post #12 of 14
2/6/12 at 2:43pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:

Here is some of the crosstalk cancellation methods,

http://www.ambio4you.com/support/ambiotheory

http://www.ambiophonics.org/Tutorials/OneKey_1.html

Maybe the contradictions will marge in a positive one future, and this mean that those methods will implement in the music standard market... lol, do you like this happy ending?


Thanks Acix for the articles!, very interesting!

 

cheers

 

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post #13 of 14
2/6/12 at 5:02pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jark View Post


Thanks Acix for the articles!, very interesting!

 

cheers

 



You're welcome... I'm happy that I push myself to spent the extra money over the Auditor and got the Phonitor. k701smile.gif

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post #14 of 14
2/7/12 at 4:45am
Quote:
Originally Posted by jark View Post

why many manufactures of Headphones Amplifier includes Crossfeed in their designs?


jark



I think there is a few companies that includes Crossfeed in their designs,  Meier Stagedac DAC and the Concerto is a good example...

 

meier_concerto_stagedac_01.jpg

 

 

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