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Decware Appreciation Thread (MT review up on first page 2-10-12) - Page 14

post #196 of 1207

Well I spoke to Gallo about their TR-3D sub and they told me to hook it up using speaker cables from my amp into the sub and then out of the sub with speaker cables into the Stradas.   So the issue about the CSP2+ no longer exists.  I almost made the mistake of running a set of interconnects out to the subwoofer.  That would have been an expensive mistake.  very_evil_smiley.gif

post #197 of 1207

Like Frank said, I think most newer subs can either have amplifier input or mono/stereo input.

 

I was also confused on how to hook up the Taboo to my sub, when I asked Steve he recommended to use the amplifier input since the Taboo didn't have a sub out. Before that when I was using my Gizmo it had a sub mono out and I was able to use a y-adapter to hook it up to my sub.

 

IIRC, it was something along the lines of "tube to solid state wouldn't have an effective bass response" so using the amplifier input bypasses the sub's internal amp, where as the mono input will utilize the sub's amp.

 

 

Quote:
Adding a subwoofer line out to the Taboo is not possible due to the floating ground it employes.  However, we don't recommend using line level with subs anyway because solid state bass never mixes well with tube mids and highs.  We like to use the speaker level inputs on the sub so that the sub amp tracks the even order harmonic signature of the tube amp.  This makes the bass blend flawlessly with everything else. 

 


Edited by SemiAudiophile - 4/4/12 at 2:16pm
post #198 of 1207

Using that mono input into my Outlaw it blends seamlessly with my amp and speakers

post #199 of 1207

Apparently, at least in my set up running a line out of the pre amp with one interconnect using a Y splitter or running two interconnects into a sub is good in a multi channel AV situation but in a 2.1 set up not so good with every subwoofer combo.    Many subs are like the TR-3.

 

This from Gallo on the subject of their Stradas and TR-3D sub.  

 

If your amplifier has both Left and Right channel Pre-Out's then run both.  Alternatively, if there is only one single Pre-Out the just run a single interconnect - however, in this method you can boost the bass by using a Y-Splittwer cable, thus splitting the single Pre-Out into both Left and Right inputs.  

 
The main problem with this setup is when using a Stereo amplifier, you are sending a full range signal to the Strada's, and unless the Amplifier has bass control, you are also sending a full range signal to the subwoofer.  The TR3's crossover network is only active on the High Level circuit.  The Low level input is more designed for a Multi-Channel AV amplifier, where bass frequency control is taken care of by the AV Amplifier.
 
In a 2.1 setup, I would actually recommend a different approach to wiring up the Strada's and TR3 Subwoofer.  This involves running speaker cables to the subwoofer and then from the subwoofer onto the Strada's.  This will make best use of the crossover and give the best control over the setup.  It ensures that any frequencies above the crossover level set on the TR3 are sent to the Strada's and anything below is played by the TR3.
 
- From your Stereo amplifier, run a set of speaker cables to the High Level Input of the subwoofer, taking care to connect the speaker cables to the correct terminals.
- The run a second set of speaker cables from the subwoofers High Level Output to the Strada's.
- On the subwoofer, set the Level to 50%, and crossover to around 70-90Hz.
- Phase should be at 0º if the sub is on the same plane as the Strada's, or 180º if it's behind the listening position.
- Once music is playing use your ears to accurately adjust the crossover and level controls to give the best sound.
 
post #200 of 1207
Quote:
Originally Posted by SemiAudiophile View Post

Like Frank said, I think most newer subs can either have amplifier input or mono/stereo input.

 

I was also confused on how to hook up the Taboo to my sub, when I asked Steve he recommended to use the amplifier input since the Taboo didn't have a sub out. Before that when I was using my Gizmo it had a sub mono out and I was able to use a y-adapter to hook it up to my sub.

 

IIRC, it was something along the lines of "tube to solid state wouldn't have an effective bass response" so using the amplifier input bypasses the sub's internal amp, where as the mono input will utilize the sub's amp.

 

 

 


No, that is NOT what he was saying. The sub is using its own amp either way, I can assure you. The Taboo is not driving the sub from an amp perspective, no way could it. What you are doing by using the speaker taps and running those to the sub is you are feeding the sub all the same colorations that you are feeding the main speakers. That is essentially what Steve was saying, and what he is saying provides a good "blending", sonically. But the sub amp is still driving the sub, and the subs crossover is still active, both of which are totally necessary.
post #201 of 1207

I see...thanks for the clarification Skylab. So when using the mono output to sub, it doesn't add coloration as you would by using speaker taps?

post #202 of 1207
Not in the same way, because the mono out is line level and would be derived prior to the power amplification stage of the Decware, whereas the speaker outs are coming off the output transformer, and output transformers definitely have a "sound".
post #203 of 1207

Flowers, here about, are blooming, and so is my Decware CSP2+ and Taboo combo.  At this point I’m guessing I’m somewhere around 250 hours give or take, and its true potential is beginning to show.  If you’re waiting for one, the other, or both to arrive and have no experience with Decware, you won’t be disappointed.  However, be aware it’s quite like adopting a young man whose voice is just beginning to change.  At least 200 hundred hours before you have any idea what’s going to hit your ears.  You’ll get a phrase or a couple minutes of rich purity, then it’s jumping all over the place.  Made me glad at times I had the HE-6 and Master 6.  I got the upgraded v-caps so the burn in isn’t finished yet, but there’s consistency, and top notch quality, and the next couple hundred hours will be a pleasure.  

I hope you’ll forgive  my less than audiophilesque description of my impressions.  The CSP2+ does a wonderful job with the HD800.   Adding strength and control to the bass, widening the sound stage (yes, even with the HD800 the soundstage can get wider and deeper), increasing details, and instrument placement.  However, there are no two ways about it, HD800 out of the Taboo with the CSP2+ as a preamp is, for me, significantly better.  Take all the above, and double it, easily.  With the HD800, probably the largest improvement was with the bass.  Always, I felt an area where they were lacking, at least compared to all the other areas where they excel.  It gained not only depth, and fullness, but control.  

Everyone has something they listen for that, when well done in a challenging piece of music, lets you know whether or not you have a winner.  I listen to lots of classical written for the most part written after 1850.  I have aspects of solo piano I want to hear, and strings, most definitely.  I know where the instruments should be, and I want them there, and in the proper relationship to each other.  However, my sticking point, my pet peeve, is brass.  I’ve heard more bleating trombones, blatting horns, and farting tubas than I care to think about.  Now though, horns are smooth, deep, and full, trombones rich and noble, and tubas, at long last sound as if they belong in the orchestra rather than the outhouse.

From top to bottom, there’s evenness in detail, clarity, and control.  The increase in air, or separation and balance of the instruments has enabled to me hear details so subtle I’ve missed them before, such as the gentle use of snares in Arnold’s 6th.  More than once, the over all refinement has swept me away from whatever I might have been doing while listening, and snared my complete and undivided attention.   If you want a visual analogy, it’s like going from an iPad 2 to the new iPad with retina display.  



 

Quote:
nigeljames
If possible, when everything is settled, could you try the Master-6 pre amp to the Taboo.
The Taboo is still on my shortlist and would be running from the Master-6 so any opinions would be appreciated.

 


The CSP2+ & Taboo is really not for the HE-6.  HE-6 is fine with “small” non-challenging music, like acoustic.  At best pleasant, delightful, but impressive? Not so much so.  Basically the HE-6 through the Master 6 beats it into the ground coming and going.  However, yesterday I rearranged my room, and with it my tower, which gave me the opportunity to patch in a pair of signal cable silver resolution interconnects I wasn’t using from the Master 6 to use with the Taboo.   

About all I can say is “Whoa!”  This combo can drive the HE-6.  It brings in the detail and clarity, that was missing.  With the CSP2, to get anything even close to reasonable I’d have the volume at roughly 1, and for heavy orchestral music, it just couldn’t cut it.   With the Master-6 as a pre amp, I’ve spent the morning just rolling through my test track playlist, volume at about 9 for the most part.  It’s doing a great job.  Particularly with instrument separation, clarity and detail in the bass.  The Taboo does add warmth to an already somewhat warm signature, but not excessively so, and without loss of detail.  I want to say there’s better instrument placement in a slightly wider sound stage, but I’d have to do more direct A/B listening to be willing to stand behind that.  However, I'm planning on going back to my usual set up, and returning the HE-6 to the Master 6, and the HD800 to the CSP2 combo.  Maybe tomorrow. I'll want to try the HD800 with this set up as well first and right now the HE-6 are not quite ready to leave my head.

I’m at a fantastic “resting place”.  I don’t feel I’m wanting or needing anything else at this point. Ok, I’ll confess: This summer I suspect I’ll explore tube rolling.  I also definitely see a pair of Decware desktop speakers coming in at some point in the next few months.  Plus I could use a couple more Venom 3s.  But those are just refining tweaks, right?  

post #204 of 1207

Thanks for the impressions Nyvar.  My taboo cannot come soon enough :)

 

I'll probably be picking up some of decware's desktop speakers of my own in the future as well.

post #205 of 1207

IMG_0586.JPG

IMG_0587.JPG

IMG_0585.JPG

Decware love. gs1000.gif

post #206 of 1207

Great pictures. makes me want tube rings just for the coolness factor.  

post #207 of 1207

Yeah wonderful pics.  The wood looks great on the contemporary one.

post #208 of 1207
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nyvar View Post

Flowers, here about, are blooming, and so is my Decware CSP2+ and Taboo combo.  At this point I’m guessing I’m somewhere around 250 hours give or take, and its true potential is beginning to show.  If you’re waiting for one, the other, or both to arrive and have no experience with Decware, you won’t be disappointed.  However, be aware it’s quite like adopting a young man whose voice is just beginning to change.  At least 200 hundred hours before you have any idea what’s going to hit your ears.  You’ll get a phrase or a couple minutes of rich purity, then it’s jumping all over the place.  Made me glad at times I had the HE-6 and Master 6.  I got the upgraded v-caps so the burn in isn’t finished yet, but there’s consistency, and top notch quality, and the next couple hundred hours will be a pleasure.  

I hope you’ll forgive  my less than audiophilesque description of my impressions.  The CSP2+ does a wonderful job with the HD800.   Adding strength and control to the bass, widening the sound stage (yes, even with the HD800 the soundstage can get wider and deeper), increasing details, and instrument placement.  However, there are no two ways about it, HD800 out of the Taboo with the CSP2+ as a preamp is, for me, significantly better.  Take all the above, and double it, easily.  With the HD800, probably the largest improvement was with the bass.  Always, I felt an area where they were lacking, at least compared to all the other areas where they excel.  It gained not only depth, and fullness, but control.  

Everyone has something they listen for that, when well done in a challenging piece of music, lets you know whether or not you have a winner.  I listen to lots of classical written for the most part written after 1850.  I have aspects of solo piano I want to hear, and strings, most definitely.  I know where the instruments should be, and I want them there, and in the proper relationship to each other.  However, my sticking point, my pet peeve, is brass.  I’ve heard more bleating trombones, blatting horns, and farting tubas than I care to think about.  Now though, horns are smooth, deep, and full, trombones rich and noble, and tubas, at long last sound as if they belong in the orchestra rather than the outhouse.

From top to bottom, there’s evenness in detail, clarity, and control.  The increase in air, or separation and balance of the instruments has enabled to me hear details so subtle I’ve missed them before, such as the gentle use of snares in Arnold’s 6th.  More than once, the over all refinement has swept me away from whatever I might have been doing while listening, and snared my complete and undivided attention.   If you want a visual analogy, it’s like going from an iPad 2 to the new iPad with retina display.  



 

 


The CSP2+ & Taboo is really not for the HE-6.  HE-6 is fine with “small” non-challenging music, like acoustic.  At best pleasant, delightful, but impressive? Not so much so.  Basically the HE-6 through the Master 6 beats it into the ground coming and going.  However, yesterday I rearranged my room, and with it my tower, which gave me the opportunity to patch in a pair of signal cable silver resolution interconnects I wasn’t using from the Master 6 to use with the Taboo.   

About all I can say is “Whoa!”  This combo can drive the HE-6.  It brings in the detail and clarity, that was missing.  With the CSP2, to get anything even close to reasonable I’d have the volume at roughly 1, and for heavy orchestral music, it just couldn’t cut it.   With the Master-6 as a pre amp, I’ve spent the morning just rolling through my test track playlist, volume at about 9 for the most part.  It’s doing a great job.  Particularly with instrument separation, clarity and detail in the bass.  The Taboo does add warmth to an already somewhat warm signature, but not excessively so, and without loss of detail.  I want to say there’s better instrument placement in a slightly wider sound stage, but I’d have to do more direct A/B listening to be willing to stand behind that.  However, I'm planning on going back to my usual set up, and returning the HE-6 to the Master 6, and the HD800 to the CSP2 combo.  Maybe tomorrow. I'll want to try the HD800 with this set up as well first and right now the HE-6 are not quite ready to leave my head.

I’m at a fantastic “resting place”.  I don’t feel I’m wanting or needing anything else at this point. Ok, I’ll confess: This summer I suspect I’ll explore tube rolling.  I also definitely see a pair of Decware desktop speakers coming in at some point in the next few months.  Plus I could use a couple more Venom 3s.  But those are just refining tweaks, right?  


Thanks nyvar been looking forward to your impressions.

 

Just a couple of questions

1. If I read your comments properly you are saying the Master-6 - Taboo drives the HE-6 very well and better than CSP2 - Taboo and that the Master-6-Taboo has more power for the HE6's. If so I find this a little strange (the power part) as the Master-6 puts out 9 volts from its pre-amp and the CSP2 up to 23volts if my memory is correct.

 

2. Have you been able to compare Master-6 direct,Master-6 -Taboo and CSP2 -Taboo driving your HD800. If so any opinions.

 

3. It also seems that the Taboo when driven by a preamp does a better job than the CSP2 driving high impedance phones (at least the HD800's). Do you agree on this?

 

Thanks and enjoy

 


Edited by nigeljames - 4/9/12 at 2:55am
post #209 of 1207
Thread Starter 

Great review NVYAR!  A wonderful read and I totally understand about finding a good resting place from upgrading heh.  I found that also with my Mini Torii and have not looked at anything else for my home rig.

Enjoy the music everyone :)

Tink97

post #210 of 1207

 

NigelJames,

 

First, I owe you an unexpected debt.  You made me realize something I'd forgotten about the CSP2+.  So I owe you one, and you and everyone else may feel free to laugh at my idiocy.  ;) 

 

 

Quote:

1. If I read your comments properly you are saying the Master-6 - Taboo drives the HE-6 very well and better than CSP2 - Taboo and that the Master-6-Taboo has more power for the HE6's. If so I find this a little strange (the power part) as the Master-6 puts out 9 volts from its pre-amp and the CSP2 up to 23volts if my memory is correct.

 

 

You indeed have every right to be puzzled, even though my statements stand, but in the context of my poor testing.   The point I'd quite forgotten is the CSP2+ has variable output.  I tested at the default setting, so I was comparing the CSP2+ set at 4 volts, vs. the Master 6 with 9.5 volts via RCA.  To give an accurate comparison of the two, what I need to do is up the output on the CSP2+ (up to 36 volts) and to give the Master 6 a fair shot, use xlr to RCA out which will bump it up to 19 volts.  So forget the comparison in terms of what you're looking for.  Probably next weekend before I can reset the Master 6 (it's awkward in my set up to get to the back.  

 

 

Quote:
2. Have you been able to compare Master-6 direct,Master-6 -Taboo and CSP2 -Taboo driving your HD800. If so any opinions.

 

I can say the HD800 str8 out of the Master 6 is great.  However, let me hold on comparisons for now.  I did try the above set up briefly with the HD800 but not enough to really feel comfortable voicing an opinion.  It can take my ears a while to adjust to a new signature enough to become objective about it.  

 

 

Quote:
3. It also seems that the Taboo when driven by a preamp does a better job than the CSP2 driving high impedance phones (at least the HD800's). Do you agree on this?

 

I would say at least for me and the HD800, yes, hands down, no question.   Someone else mentioned much the same, and my thoughts matched theirs.  The CSP2+ is excellent with high impedance headphones (at least for me with the HD800), but the Taboo with the CSP2+ as a pre amp, is markedly better.   

 

Again, thanks and I owe you one.  

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