Head-Fi.org › Forums › Equipment Forums › Sound Science › Single sided cable headphones.
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Single sided cable headphones. - Page 2

post #16 of 31

more food for thoughts here: http://www.head-fi.org/t/417250/dual-entry-whats-the-point/30#post_6995433

 

*facts* are that my current phone is dual entry and I've never heard such an amazing 3D SS...so I'll put my hands where my mouth is, I guess this should be added to the "necessary evils" list evil_smiley.gif

post #17 of 31

Having more thoughts about it, it should be entirely possible to use a single entry point and yet having both cables of the exact same length...need to chew on this for my next rehousing projectspopcorn.gif

post #18 of 31

I suppose it's possible... but why? There will be no difference, audible or measurable at that distance, in either signal speed/delay, or resistance (possible measurable resistance difference, but not audible).

 

I would fully expect that your current headphone, well converted to single entry, would sound exactly the same. 

 

The electron drift effect you noted in the other thread has no bearing whatsoever on signal propagation in a cable, or delays, or sound, or anything really. It is really only a factor with semi-conductors (which, you are well past, by the time you are talking about your headphone cable). 


Edited by liamstrain - 1/31/12 at 7:54pm
post #19 of 31

well, SONY went single sided on the cd3k but dual on the R10...they share the same exact shell that can easily transport the required wires. They also have a patent PDF that explains all the tricks of the trade that went into the R10...this cannot be a coincidence.

 

As been said earlier in this thread, it doesn't make any sense to strive for low jitter equipment(Iz can hear it) and yet use single sided cables...the human brain HRTF are based on delay, and it's far more sensitive to delay that we could be led to believe.


Edited by leeperry - 2/3/12 at 7:52pm
post #20 of 31
Quote:
Originally Posted by leeperry View Post

the human brain HRTF are based on delay, and it's far more sensitive to delay that we could be led to believe.



That's a nice thought, but it's based on what? Your eyes cannot tell the difference between 24 frames per second and 30 frames per second... and only slightly even up to 60 frames per second... beyond that, not at all - and the optic nerve carries a lot more information than the vestibulo-cochlear nerve.

 

Incremental differences are important, but it seems ever more clear that there is a limit to what we can effectively perceive and use. 

 

I believe there are lots of tricks and goodies that went into the creation of the R10. The existance of a PDF with patents doesn't say anything about that specific decision (for all we know it might be 40 pages of why they decided on the specific angle of the driver. There may well be good reasons they decided to go with double entry, but I would be VERY surprised to learn that measurable delay or resistance differences had anything at all to do with it, beyond hedging their bets.

 

The only decision about it that makes any sense to me as far as affecting the sound, would be the number of holes and extra wire required in one side versus the other - potentially changing the sound from that resonance chamber. 


Edited by liamstrain - 2/3/12 at 8:28pm
post #21 of 31

 

Originally Posted by liamstrain View Post

Your eyes cannot tell the difference between 24 frames per second and 30 frames per second... and only slightly even up to 60 frames per second...


Honestly, I know this subject really well...you need to document yourself on how accurate the human brain is because making this sort of statement.

 

I can see a diff between 24/25 and 29.97fps, all my videophile friends can too. And I regularly play around w/ xfeed on headphones, the brain is EXTREMELY sensitive to delay. the whole soundstage/headstage is solely based on delays.

 

A good link: http://www.100fps.com/how_many_frames_can_humans_see.htm

 

There's also a relation between the heartbeat rate and the number of fps you can see...the reason why ppl feel like seconds were hours when they have accidents, or why pigeons always seem to fly away at the very last second...they simply see "more" fps than we do. Cats are the same, they see far more fps than us. I've got links to serious researches to back up everything I say BTW.

 

Fighter pilots can see up to 100fps, 24fps was chosen because it was the minimum required in order to fool the human brain...but it's hiccupy like hell on slow pans really...there's a good reason why some producers wanna push for 48fps: https://www.google.com/search?q=james+cameron+48fps

 

You can truly fool the human brain starting from 72fps.


Edited by leeperry - 2/3/12 at 8:43pm
post #22 of 31

I'd be curious to see some of those studies. We do most of our hi-def work at 29.97, but have not been able to detect differences with faster frame rates except under very specific circumstances (which would not be reproduced in normal viewing). 

 

But seriously, copper audio cables like this typically have VF rates of nearlly .7... that's 70% of the speed of light. A VF of 0.70 corresponds to a speed of approximately 210,000,000 m/s or 4.76 ns to travel one meter. or 1.2ns to travel 10 inches (across the headband). That's a really really REALLY short period of time. 

 

It would be interesting to construct a test to see if such short delays are actually perceptible. But consider me skeptical.


Edited by liamstrain - 2/3/12 at 8:57pm
post #23 of 31

the smallest reported resolvable ITD with specially tailored clik test signals are still over 1 uS =~ 500ft of cable propagation delay

 

you have to have a really big head to think you can hear the delay difference from the extra length of wire in the headband


Edited by jcx - 2/3/12 at 9:23pm
post #24 of 31

Firstly, your link to do with video playback has sod all to do with anything.

 

Secondly, we can now add "hearing sound-stage differences in cable length" to the thousands of things you easily hear (we're all deaf) because you have magical, bias immune ears which makes what you hear from casual listening impressions the ABSOLUTE UNDENIABLE TRUTH. 

 

Perhaps you can start another thread on it and we can all have a good laugh when you waltz out halfway through, declaring your beliefs vindicated, only for various people to point out what you puport to prove you right shows the exact opposite (that was fun the last time, no?)

 

 

post #25 of 31

The video thing was at least in response to me. Not out of the blue. 

post #26 of 31

 

Originally Posted by jcx View Post

you have to have a really big head to think you can hear the delay difference from the extra length of wire in the headband

Yeah, SONY decided to go dual on the R10 because they ran out of copper wire for the headband I guess darthsmile.gif

 

I've got a very large head anyway, yes. the MDR-CD900ST is torture to me for instance and I usually have headbands set to almost always the highest positions.


Edited by leeperry - 2/4/12 at 7:11am
post #27 of 31

We don't know why Sony went dual wire, there are many possible reasons. Claiming that because they chose to that there must be an audible benefit, is confusing things, and making things up.


Edited by liamstrain - 2/4/12 at 8:00am
post #28 of 31
Quote:
Originally Posted by liamstrain View Post



That's a nice thought, but it's based on what? Your eyes cannot tell the difference between 24 frames per second and 30 frames per second... and only slightly even up to 60 frames per second... beyond that, not at all - and the optic nerve carries a lot more information than the vestibulo-cochlear nerve.

reminds of guy i use to work with when i use to be a computer tech for a small shop saying the same thing on what you said.


anyways, human eye defiantly can detect difference between 30fps and 60fps. it's so obvious when you see it,especially in things like gaming. even some can detect difference of 120fps over 60fps in very fast pace competitive gaming. 30fps to 60fps is a big difference in speed and overall smoothness in framerate. movies are made at 24fps/30hz while some anime/cartoons is recorded up to 40fps. things like gaming is only limited by the hardware when coming to pc gaming cause you can run endless amount of framerate your gpu can push but of course limited by the monitor's refresh rate. i like sticking to CRT for this very reason(besides clarity, color accuracy and no resolution rendering issues). framerate is limited by refresh rate of the monitor/screen.


sorry for going off topic.
post #29 of 31

I can't read any of the last messages coz they pretty much all show up as "This post is hidden because the user is in your block list" sadly...but I'll give you that the SONY research engineers indeed had bat hearing:

Quote:
 
Nobutosi KIHARA
Chief of Sony Kihara laboratory
Born 1926 in Tokyo ; joined Sony as mechanist after graduation from Wasada University.
Mr Kihara is able to hear up to 30kHz !

 

URL is a 404 now, though: http://www.thevintageknob.org/SONY/sonywhoswho/sonywhoswho.html

 

More infos about TEH man(president of the Sony-Kihara Research Center BTW): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nobutoshi_Kihara


Quote:
Originally Posted by RexAeterna View Post

i like sticking to CRT for this very reason(besides clarity, color accuracy and no resolution rendering issues). framerate is limited by refresh rate of the monitor/screen.


Team CRT!!! Hopefully OLED will soon change the game very_evil_smiley.gif

They can keep their 60Hz-only 600:1 CR LCD's all they want, got no use for them.

and when I hear orthos from the 70's, I feel the exact same deadhorse.gif


Edited by leeperry - 2/4/12 at 10:02am
post #30 of 31

Some people prefer how single sided cables wear, some don't. Some headphone designs accomodate for a concealed cable (or power through frame). Design plays a big part into consumer devices, they have to look a certain way. It honestly won't make a difference to you. Anyone that says otherwise has some sort of supremest ideas of themselves. 

 

The brain tricks you left and right, it may be more sensitive than some people say but far less sensitive than others do. Either way the brain processes information in strange ways don't expect miracles.

New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Sound Science
Head-Fi.org › Forums › Equipment Forums › Sound Science › Single sided cable headphones.