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V-MODA M-100: Discussion/Feedback, Reviews, Pics, etc. - Page 1005

post #15061 of 21374
Quote:
Originally Posted by Craigster75 View Post


To your first point, you are correct.  I have high hopes for the NAD HP50 coming out in September in the under $300 category.

 

To your cost comparison between the Sig DJ and M-100, I spent just over 2X as much for the Sig DJ, so it sounds like you found a great deal on the M-100 and I found a great deal on the Sig DJ.

 

Woah! Wait! You found Sig DJs for $200? If I find them at that price I'm pulling the trigger no matter what. And I too am looking forward to the NAD HP50. Hopefully I can get my hands on a pair.

post #15062 of 21374
Quote:
Originally Posted by rudeboybass View Post

i have the rockwool mod and srh840 pads and through the schiit magni i can go 75% volume before it blasts my ears out..
you mean W not MW? idk if .29mW would be enough power to run the t50..

29 Watts?!? That would be utterly insane if they required that much power to reach 90 dB SPL. I don't even think Schiit Audio amps output that much power. Are you sure your source volume is maxed out? (i.e. source at maximum volume level, then adjust the volume with the Magni's potentiometer).

 

Here's something for comparison, the infamous power hungry HE-6: 19.69 mW to reach 90 dB SPL

 

And a little math if you're so inclined:

You double the power needed for a +3 dB SPL gain. One perceives twice the volume level with a +10 dB SPL gain.

 

16.69 mW to reach 90 dB SPL

33.38 mW to reach 93 dB SPL

66.76 mW to reach 96 dB SPL

... or 16.69 * 2^x to reach 90 + x*3 SPL

 

Usually 110 dB SPL is a good indication for a very loud listening level, or for very dynamic music.

 

110 dB SPL - 90 dB SPL = 20 dB SPL

20 dB SPL / 3 dB SPL = 6.666666666666666666666666

16.69 mW * 2^6.6666666666 ≈ 1695.59 mW or 1.69 W

 

Yes, about 1.7 Watts of power is needed to get an infamously inefficient HE-6 to ~110 dB SPL.

 

 

Here's the M-100 for comparison's sake.

0.03 mW * 2^6.66666666 = 3.05 mW to reach 110 dB SPL

 

That's right, a mere 3.05 mW in comparison. That's why you don't NEED a dedicated external headphone amplifier to get the M-100's to sound loud. After all, the purpose of an amplifier is to boost the incoming signal and to provide the proper power for the load (headphone).


Edited by miceblue - 6/18/13 at 3:06pm
post #15063 of 21374
Quote:
Originally Posted by miceblue View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by rudeboybass View Post

i have the rockwool mod and srh840 pads and through the schiit magni i can go 75% volume before it blasts my ears out..

you mean W not MW? idk if .29mW would be enough power to run the t50..
29 Watts?!? That would be utterly insane if they required that much power to reach 90 dB SPL. I don't even think Schiit Audio amps output that much power. Are you sure your source volume is maxed out? (i.e. source at maximum volume level, then adjust the volume with the Magni's potentiometer).

Here's something for comparison, the infamous power hungry HE-6: 19.69 mW to reach 90 dB SPL

And a little math if you're so inclined:
You double the power needed for a +3 dB SPL gain. One perceives twice the volume level with a +10 dB SPL gain.

16.69 mW to reach 90 dB SPL
33.38 mW to reach 93 dB SPL
66.76 mW to reach 96 dB SPL
... or 16.69 * 2^x to reach 90 + x*3 SPL

Usually 110 dB SPL is a good indication for a very loud listening level, or for very dynamic music.

110 dB SPL - 90 dB SPL = 20 dB SPL
20 dB SPL / 3 dB SPL = 6.666666666666666666666666
16.69 mW * 2^6.6666666666 ≈ 1695.59 mW or 1.69 W

Yes, about 1.7 Watts of power is needed to get an infamously inefficient HE-6 to ~110 dB SPL.


Here's the M-100 for comparison's sake.
0.03 mW * 2^6.66666666 = 3.05 mW to reach 110 dB SPL

That's right, a mere 3.05 mW in comparison. That's why you don't NEED a dedicated external headphone amplifier to get the M-100's to sound loud. After all, the purpose of an amplifier is to boost the incoming signal and to provide the proper power for the load (headphone).
You said 0.29mw
I said you mean.029w?
Not disagreeing at all with you.
smily_headphones1.gif
post #15064 of 21374
Quote:
Originally Posted by rudeboybass View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by miceblue View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by rudeboybass View Post

i have the rockwool mod and srh840 pads and through the schiit magni i can go 75% volume before it blasts my ears out..

you mean W not MW? idk if .29mW would be enough power to run the t50..
29 Watts?!? That would be utterly insane if they required that much power to reach 90 dB SPL. I don't even think Schiit Audio amps output that much power. Are you sure your source volume is maxed out? (i.e. source at maximum volume level, then adjust the volume with the Magni's potentiometer).

Here's something for comparison, the infamous power hungry HE-6: 19.69 mW to reach 90 dB SPL

And a little math if you're so inclined:
You double the power needed for a +3 dB SPL gain. One perceives twice the volume level with a +10 dB SPL gain.

16.69 mW to reach 90 dB SPL
33.38 mW to reach 93 dB SPL
66.76 mW to reach 96 dB SPL
... or 16.69 * 2^x to reach 90 + x*3 SPL

Usually 110 dB SPL is a good indication for a very loud listening level, or for very dynamic music.

110 dB SPL - 90 dB SPL = 20 dB SPL
20 dB SPL / 3 dB SPL = 6.666666666666666666666666
16.69 mW * 2^6.6666666666 ≈ 1695.59 mW or 1.69 W

Yes, about 1.7 Watts of power is needed to get an infamously inefficient HE-6 to ~110 dB SPL.


Here's the M-100 for comparison's sake.
0.03 mW * 2^6.66666666 = 3.05 mW to reach 110 dB SPL

That's right, a mere 3.05 mW in comparison. That's why you don't NEED a dedicated external headphone amplifier to get the M-100's to sound loud. After all, the purpose of an amplifier is to boost the incoming signal and to provide the proper power for the load (headphone).
You said 0.29mw
I said you mean.029w?
Not disagreeing at all with you.
smily_headphones1.gif

I was just about to edit my post saying "whoops I misread .26 mW as 26 mW. I missed the decimal point there."

Still, 260 mW is a lot of power for the T50RP.


Edited by miceblue - 6/18/13 at 3:56pm
post #15065 of 21374
with my e17 they just dont have enough power for my t50rps. unless i put it on 12 gain but thats just too much gain for me. they have 3000mw capacity!
although the e17 provides plenty of power to the m100
Edited by rudeboybass - 6/18/13 at 4:27pm
post #15066 of 21374

My new iBasso D42 has 230mW output and my other semi-portable has 300mW, both of those power the M100s well. It's not about the volume, my Galaxy S3 does that fine on it's own, louder than I'd need, but I find the extra power helps add ease to the notes. When amped I find the M100's soundstage widens and the notes flow significantly more easily AND just sound more realistic/organic. I keep the source volume maxed, use the lowest gain, and never move the attenuator past 10 o'clock. Works for me so far, I can't go back to unamped, no 2 ways about it.

post #15067 of 21374

Amplifiers per se provide power to the load and increase the gain of the signal, it has nothing to do with the perceived audio quality. In that regards, yes only volume matters. This is what an amplifier does:

From the Merriam-Webster dictionary

Quote:
Definition of AMPLIFIER: one that amplifies; specifically : an electronic device (as in a stereo system) for amplifying voltage, current, or power

 

 

Now if you talk about how the amp is built: the components chosen, the way they're arranged, the overall whole package, then yes the audio quality is altered.

 

Having more power doesn't mean anything as I can put the M-100 with a Schiit Asgard, which I have tried, and I would say it didn't sound any better than with the C5 I have, which has much less power per se. So while your phone's headphone amp may provide sufficient power to the M-100, just as your iBasso does, the iBasso had specific design constraints for optimal audio quality whereas the phone didn't. The phone's headphone amp is just to do its thing for the average consumer.

 

 

 

On another note, Asr wrote his review on a new thread:

http://www.head-fi.org/t/668277/review-v-moda-m-100

post #15068 of 21374
Quote:
Originally Posted by miceblue View Post

Amplifiers per se provide power to the load and increase the gain of the signal, it has nothing to do with the perceived audio quality. In that regards, yes only volume matters. This is what an amplifier does:

From the Merriam-Webster dictionary

 

 

Now if you talk about how the amp is built: the components chosen, the way they're arranged, the overall whole package, then yes the audio quality is altered.

 

Having more power doesn't mean anything as I can put the M-100 with a Schiit Asgard, which I have tried, and I would say it didn't sound any better than with the C5 I have, which has much less power per se. So while your phone's headphone amp may provide sufficient power to the M-100, just as your iBasso does, the iBasso had specific design constraints for optimal audio quality whereas the phone didn't. The phone's headphone amp is just to do its thing for the average consumer.

 

 

 

On another note, Asr wrote his review on a new thread:

http://www.head-fi.org/t/668277/review-v-moda-m-100

 

You make a major assumption here my friend...  The first, and main one would be that the sound pressure increases linearly across the frequency range as voltage, current, or power (both) is increased.  That may or may not be true for a particular set of cans. 


Edited by tinyman392 - 6/18/13 at 10:40pm
post #15069 of 21374
Quote:
Originally Posted by tinyman392 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by miceblue View Post

Amplifiers per se provide power to the load and increase the gain of the signal, it has nothing to do with the perceived audio quality. In that regards, yes only volume matters. This is what an amplifier does:
From the Merriam-Webster dictionary


Now if you talk about how the amp is built: the components chosen, the way they're arranged, the overall whole package, then yes the audio quality is altered.

Having more power doesn't mean anything as I can put the M-100 with a Schiit Asgard, which I have tried, and I would say it didn't sound any better than with the C5 I have, which has much less power per se. So while your phone's headphone amp may provide sufficient power to the M-100, just as your iBasso does, the iBasso had specific design constraints for optimal audio quality whereas the phone didn't. The phone's headphone amp is just to do its thing for the average consumer.



On another note, Asr wrote his review on a new thread:
http://www.head-fi.org/t/668277/review-v-moda-m-100

You make a major assumption here my friend...  The first, and main one would be that the sound pressure increases linearly across the frequency range as voltage, current, or power (both) is increased.  That may or may not be true for a particular set of cans. 

Mhmm that's true, and that's a limitation of the components chosen.
post #15070 of 21374
Quote:
Originally Posted by miceblue View Post

Amplifiers per se provide power to the load and increase the gain of the signal, it has nothing to do with the perceived audio quality. In that regards, yes only volume matters. This is what an amplifier does:

 

Now if you talk about how the amp is built: the components chosen, the way they're arranged, the overall whole package, then yes the audio quality is altered.

 

Having more power doesn't mean anything as I can put the M-100 with a Schiit Asgard, which I have tried, and I would say it didn't sound any better than with the C5 I have, which has much less power per se. So while your phone's headphone amp may provide sufficient power to the M-100, just as your iBasso does, the iBasso had specific design constraints for optimal audio quality whereas the phone didn't. The phone's headphone amp is just to do its thing for the average consumer.

 

Not that I'm disagreeing with you, but doesn't the mW of whatever amount indicate the amount of power(don't chastise my word choice) that a driver has available to invert the polarity and move? If a driver were under powered it wouldn't be able to move fast enough and the music would sound muddy/distorted, as opposed to if it were over powered it would sound effortless? My comparison in my mind is of when you lift weights and you attempt to lift near your max and struggle to move the weight cleanly, compared to when you lift half that and it's a fast, smooth ordeal that takes no real effort at all. That's how I imagine the driver reacting to having more mW on tap, and it's also how it sounds.

 

Yes, I do see your point about the component choice with the iBasso amp circuit and the S3 amp circuit, two very different approaches to an outcome. If it only came down to amplifying the same signal though, why does it sound effortless when I just use the 1/8" aux cable from headphone-out->aux-in? If it were only adding gain to the same signal, and not supplying more available power for the drivers to move and do their job, would it not just result in a more sensitive attenuator?

 

I don't know the technical sides of amps, this is just what I've experienced to now and it's how I imagine them :-)

post #15071 of 21374
Quote:
Originally Posted by Benny-x View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by miceblue View Post

Amplifiers per se provide power to the load and increase the gain of the signal, it has nothing to do with the perceived audio quality. In that regards, yes only volume matters. This is what an amplifier does:

Now if you talk about how the amp is built: the components chosen, the way they're arranged, the overall whole package, then yes the audio quality is altered.


Having more power doesn't mean anything as I can put the M-100 with a Schiit Asgard, which I have tried, and I would say it didn't sound any better than with the C5 I have, which has much less power per se. So while your phone's headphone amp may provide sufficient power to the M-100, just as your iBasso does, the iBasso had specific design constraints for optimal audio quality whereas the phone didn't. The phone's headphone amp is just to do its thing for the average consumer.

Not that I'm disagreeing with you, but doesn't the mW of whatever amount indicate the amount of power(don't chastise my word choice) that a driver has available to invert the polarity and move? If a driver were under powered it wouldn't be able to move fast enough and the music would sound muddy/distorted, as opposed to if it were over powered it would sound effortless? My comparison in my mind is of when you lift weights and you attempt to lift near your max and struggle to move the weight cleanly, compared to when you lift half that and it's a fast, smooth ordeal that takes no real effort at all. That's how I imagine the driver reacting to having more mW on tap, and it's also how it sounds.

Yes, I do see your point about the component choice with the iBasso amp circuit and the S3 amp circuit, two very different approaches to an outcome. If it only came down to amplifying the same signal though, why does it sound effortless when I just use the 1/8" aux cable from headphone-out->aux-in? If it were only adding gain to the same signal, and not supplying more available power for the drivers to move and do their job, would it not just result in a more sensitive attenuator?

I don't know the technical sides of amps, this is just what I've experienced to now and it's how I imagine them :-)

Yeah I see what you're saying; nice analogy with the weight-lifting. biggrin.gif

I don't know the complete details of how op-amps work, I'm not an electrical engineer, but they do what they can in their limitations/specifications. Sure amps can have more wiggle room with extra power but the sound signals are still sound signals and the extra wiggle room might not even be used. Clipping happens when the amp can't meet the needs for the load so the extra power would be useful for avoiding this problem, especially for very dynamic music at loud listening levels. If you work within the components' limitations and work within the provided manufacturing specifications though, the sound shouldn't be any different between amp A with power X and amp A with power 2X at the same volume level from my understanding since they're both doing tasks under the design constraints. The "struggling" part of your analogy would be the occurrence of the amp clipping to produce the given signal. Anything before the point of struggling, clipping, is fine for the amp and would produce a signal just as cleanly as an amp with more power since it's operating in the normal specified working conditions. For the case of the "light weight" in your analogy, it would apply to both "weak" and "powerful" amps.

Anywho, this discussion is deviating away from the topic and should be more under the Sound Science section.
Edited by miceblue - 6/19/13 at 2:17am
post #15072 of 21374
Quote:
Originally Posted by kyuuketsuki View Post

 

Woah! Wait! You found Sig DJs for $200? If I find them at that price I'm pulling the trigger no matter what. And I too am looking forward to the NAD HP50. Hopefully I can get my hands on a pair.


I think you missed my point.  You are the only person I know of who claimed to purchase the M-100 for $100.  I paid $300 for the M-100 at launch and $700 for the Sig DJ new on Ebay.

post #15073 of 21374
Quote:
Originally Posted by Craigster75 View Post


I think you missed my point.  You are the only person I know of who claimed to purchase the M-100 for $100.  I paid $300 for the M-100 at launch and $700 for the Sig DJ new on Ebay.

 

He's not the first. v-moda offers up to 70% off for employees of stores that carry their products. http://vici.v-moda.com/
post #15074 of 21374
I wish I could have gotten my M100 for $100, I would ha en pulled that trigger a long time ago. I've even been debating buying a set of lps for $99 from V-moda
post #15075 of 21374

does anyone know if the v moda m100 come with extra shield on their website if so how many?

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