DAC

Quote:

Originally Posted by tomb 

DAC

Why is that? I always thought of it as a DAC should be as free from coloration as possible while the amp is where you can have your coloration so I would have assumed it would be the amp.

amp

but ideally there should be no coloration.

Source, source, source - it all begins there.  There's no coloration in more detail.  They may all have flat frequency responses, but better DACs have more detail.

The OP asked about an all solid-state string.  One would assume that the amp in that string would be transparent or as nearly transparent as possible.  If you had a B22, where do you think the greatest change would be?  The DAC would make all the difference.

Hm, well it really depends on the design, and whether or not there are vacuum tubes involved doesn't necessarily mean one thing or the other.

If two DACs or two amps sound different, that's because one or both were designed to deviate from passing the music straight through.  Sometimes this is intentional, to provide a different listening experience, or just to save money, and other times it's not.  It's hard to define "equally good" in this context.  It's definitely possible to get DACs and amps that have coloration so low that differences should be inaudible.  If you're talking about two DACs equally free from coloration (or with the same coloration--though that's harder to achieve), or likewise two amps equally free from coloration, they will sound the same.

In general I would say the amp changes the sound signature more, because an amp may be asked to power a wide variety of headphones with different characteristics.  The sound signature of the amp can thus be said to depend on the headphones, so there may be some variation there.  From a DAC's perspective, it may be connected to a wide variety of amps, but every amp is going to present a fairly similar load to the DAC so there aren't going to be significantly different interactions like there may be between some amps and headphones.

The last link in your ring will colored the sound the most.

Quote:

Originally Posted by cactus_farmer 

So a solid state amp can only change the sound of the rig if it doesn't have enough power to drive the headphones (where it can sound thin)?

 

Assuming all solid state amps have enough power to drive the headphones, the amp will still color the sound more than the DAC or not?

No, it can definitely change the sound at any volume, with any load, depending on the design.  Certainly if you drive it into clipping, the sound will change a lot.  Otherwise, it really depends.

In practice, many probably don't change things in significantly audible ways into many headphones at many volumes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by cactus_farmer 

So a solid state amp can only change the sound of the rig if it doesn't have enough power to drive the headphones (where it can sound thin)?

 

Assuming all solid state amps have enough power to drive the headphones, the amp will still color the sound more than the DAC or not?

 

I hope to have more info/answers for you soon... I'm going to compare the Apogee Mini DAC with the Violectric V-800 DAC.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tomb 

Source, source, source - it all begins there.  There's no coloration in more detail.  They may all have flat frequency responses, but better DACs have more detail.

 

The OP asked about an all solid-state string.  One would assume that the amp in that string would be transparent or as nearly transparent as possible.  If you had a B22, where do you think the greatest change would be?  The DAC would make all the difference.

I can't argue that. A better DAC definitely has more detail from my experience. I was assuming that the components would be on the same level so went for the amp since different dacs all at high levels are a bit more difficult to tell apart for me while amps are a bit easier for me at least.

I always believed the DAC colored the sound more. Some DAC's out there are made to sound warm. The key is to find the most neutral DAC out there. Anything developed for studio use is meant to be neutral so you could always look there. Gettting a very neutral DAC also limits how much an amp can color the sound. I see Acix brought up the Violectric V800, which I own, and it's dead neutral to my ears. So neutral in fact that many could call one of my set-ups sterile and clinical.

• With one layout of my gear (PC > Audio-GD Digital Interface > Violectric V800 DAC > SPL Auditor) the sound is incredibly dead neutral and hyper transparent. I would say my sey-up is pretty clinical as well but I, myself, have never considered it sterile or lifeless. The sound is so transparent that when there is nothing going on in the track you can sometimes here little editing errors like pops of hiss.
   
• With another layout (PC > Audio-GD Digital Interface > Violectric V800 DAC > Woo Audio WA3+) the sound is now much, much warmer and smoother. As such you tend to loos some detail and the resolution goes down (tubes do tend to "blur" the sound). Now the set-up can be classified as fun and warm. Also  the tubes cut back on transparency more than you would think. The background is no longer black as it was with the SPL Auditor, but now is rather "hazy".
   
• With another layout: (PC > Audio-GD Digital Interface > Violectric V800 DAC > Musical Fidelity X-CANV8P) the sound is now incredibly lush and smooth sounding. Because of the tubes used (Bugle Boy 6DJ8's) the sound is now pretty fluid and warm. Much warmer sound than my WA3+ all around. The transparency is really down now and the sound is very much "blured" together. The high end of the frequencies is very cut back and the bass is not as extended nor as tight.
   
• With another layout: (PC > Audio-GD Digital Interface > Violectric V800 DAC > Audio-GD ROC) the sound is again very close to what the SPL Auditor was putting out. The only difference is that it's not nearly as transparent or resolving. The extension is also somewhat diminished. Still it's a very neutral sound all around.
   
• As a final example: (PC > Audio-GD Digital Interface > Music Hall DAC25.2 > SPL Auditor) using the RCA outputs via XLR adapter yields a totally different sonic presentation than what the Violectric V800 DAC had given. The DAC25.2's RCA output is tube driven by one single tube, more specifically a Amperex Holland 6DJ8. This tube is known for how warm it is and how involving it can sound. The resulting sound is very warm and no longer as neutral as I would desire. Lost is the transparency and blackness of the backgrounds that I desire. Treble is toned down quite a bit, the mids are forward and in full force, and the bass is present but rounded ad lacks some extension.

I hope those example are good for how an amp/dac colors the sound in specific ways. I can try and give more examples if needed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zombie_X 

I always believed the DAC colored the sound more. Some DAC's out there are made to sound warm. The key is to find the most neutral DAC out there. Anything developed for studio use is meant to be neutral so you could always look there. Gettting a very neutral DAC also limits how much an amp can color the sound. I see Acix brought up the Violectric V800, which I own, and it's dead neutral to my ears. So neutral in fact that many could call one of my set-ups sterile and clinical.

 

• With one layout of my gear (PC > Audio-GD Digital Interface > Violectric V800 DAC > SPL Auditor) the sound is incredibly dead neutral and hyper transparent. I would say my sey-up is pretty clinical as well but I, myself, have never considered it sterile or lifeless. The sound is so transparent that when there is nothing going on in the track you can sometimes here little editing errors like pops of hiss.
   
• With another layout (PC > Audio-GD Digital Interface > Violectric V800 DAC > Woo Audio WA3+) the sound is now much, much warmer and smoother. As such you tend to loos some detail and the resolution goes down (tubes do tend to "blur" the sound). Now the set-up can be classified as fun and warm. Also  the tubes cut back on transparency more than you would think. The background is no longer black as it was with the SPL Auditor, but now is rather "hazy".
   
• With another layout: (PC > Audio-GD Digital Interface > Violectric V800 DAC > Musical Fidelity X-CANV8P) the sound is now incredibly lush and smooth sounding. Because of the tubes used (Bugle Boy 6DJ8's) the sound is now pretty fluid and warm. Much warmer sound than my WA3+ all around. The transparency is really down now and the sound is very much "blured" together. The high end of the frequencies is very cut back and the bass is not as extended nor as tight.
   
• With another layout: (PC > Audio-GD Digital Interface > Violectric V800 DAC > Audio-GD ROC) the sound is again very close to what the SPL Auditor was putting out. The only difference is that it's not nearly as transparent or resolving. The extension is also somewhat diminished. Still it's a very neutral sound all around.
   
• As a final example: (PC > Audio-GD Digital Interface > Music Hall DAC25.2 > SPL Auditor) using the RCA outputs via XLR adapter yields a totally different sonic presentation than what the Violectric V800 DAC had given. The DAC25.2's RCA output is tube driven by one single tube, more specifically a Amperex Holland 6DJ8. This tube is known for how warm it is and how involving it can sound. The resulting sound is very warm and no longer as neutral as I would desire. Lost is the transparency and blackness of the backgrounds that I desire. Treble is toned down quite a bit, the mids are forward and in full force, and the bass is present but rounded ad lacks some extension.

 

 

I hope those example are good for how an amp/dac colors the sound in specific ways. I can try and give more examples if needed.

Great examples you bring up here, but what is your conclusions? From your saying looks to me like the tubes will have the most effect in your system...but to get more info, maybe you can connect the hps output of the X-CANV8P to the Auditor, and see the effect.    

BTW, the DAC25.2 is a surprise (the flying submarine)...

Since the mid 80's I'm planing to bring some old/vintage German radio tubes that have AUX and connected to my system...and now with the Phonitor in the studio I'm the most motivated.    

EDIT: I also will have the opportunity to check out the T1, I just need now to prepare more XLR cables...maybe I'll check out the Nucleotide wire (UPOCC) of the ZX Amateur Cables...

Tubes yes.  I tried as you suggested with using the HP out on my X-CANV8P to my Auditor and the Auditor lost it's entire sense of transparency. It sounds hazy and not focused. The extension is lost and the whole sound became rich. 

The DAC25.2 is a warmer sounding DAC and as such it will color all your gear. So if the X-CANV8P is warm, the DAC would make it warmer. That's no good! Now since the V800 is incredibly neutral, it will tone down the X-CANV8P's "warmth" by quite a bit. Even when using the XLR outputs on the DAC25.2 the sound is still slightly colored. It'c ever so slightly warm. 

The DAC changes the sound the most, and the amps change it the least, that is in my findings that is.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Acix 

Great examples you bring up here, but what is your conclusions? From your saying looks to me like the tubes will have the most effect in your system...but to get more info, maybe you can connect the hps output of the X-CANV8P to the Auditor, and see the effect.    

 

BTW, the DAC25.2 is a surprise (the flying submarine)...

 

 

Since the mid 80's I'm planing to bring some old/vintage German radio tubes that have AUX and connected to my system...and now with the Phonitor in the studio I'm the most motivated.    

 

EDIT: I also will have the opportunity to check out the T1, I just need now to prepare more XLR cables...maybe I'll check out the Nucleotide wire (UPOCC) of the ZX Amateur Cables...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zombie_X 

Tubes yes.  I tried as you suggested with using the HP out on my X-CANV8P to my Auditor and the Auditor lost it's entire sense of transparency. It sounds hazy and not focused. The extension is lost and the whole sound became rich. 

 

The DAC25.2 is a warmer sounding DAC and as such it will color all your gear. So if the X-CANV8P is warm, the DAC would make it warmer. That's no good! Now since the V800 is incredibly neutral, it will tone down the X-CANV8P's "warmth" by quite a bit. Even when using the XLR outputs on the DAC25.2 the sound is still slightly colored. It'c ever so slightly warm. 

 

The DAC changes the sound the most, and the amps change it the least, that is in my findings that is.

 

 

From your findings I've got the impression that the most colored link will be come the dominant sound in the system, or do you mean that the first link will determine the sound in the system always?