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Sennheiser HD 700: Officially Unveiled at CES 2012! - Page 225

post #3361 of 3533
6/25/12 at 11:26am
Quote:
Originally Posted by jude View Post

 

I like the passive-agressive approach here: You can like what you like, but if you like what I don't like (and/or what measures by someone poorly), you don't know very much (and/or your hearing's rife with problems or broken).

 

I think it's rather simpler than this: Sometimes you like what you like, not because your ears are broken or inexperienced, but just because you like how it sounds.

 

 

de gustibus et coloribus non est disputandum

 

 

I don't need or seek concurrence. I just like what I like, and don't like what I don't. I occasionally review things, but always make strong the point that what I say is only one man's opinion. If you listen to a headphone I like and don't like it, I don't assume you're hearing's problematic or broken. And if you listen to a headphone I don't like and like it, I don't assume your hearing's problematic or broken. I'm sure some headphones I like a lot (or even love) aren't necessarily going to measure well; and, if and when they're measured, the measured outcome (good or bad) doesn't change what I'm hearing.

 

I will not assert that any posted user measurements of this or any other headphone are flawed or inaccurate. Conversely, I won't assert that they aren't. I've been to the facilities of at least a few different headphone manufacturers, and I've seen some very impressive capacities to measure and objectively assess. At least one company has measurement facilities that take into careful account isolation from ground vibration and movement, as well as isolation from radio and electromagnetic interference by placing measurement gear within a room that was essentially wired up as a giant Faraday cage. I've seen acoustic measurements of many types performed in anechoic chambers big and small. And through it all, I think every single acoustics engineer I've talked to recognizes the vagaries inherent in the different measurement rigs, setups, techniques (no matter how crude or fancy).

 

I will occasionally get pre-production units (of both headphones and electronics) with measurement sheets included (stuff that's from the lab, and not publicly published). One set of two headphone units (of the same model, one pre-production, the other closer to production) recently arrived with raw measurements printed on transparencies (so that the measurements could be easily compared). I've compared some of this type of data (of headphones in production) to publicly posted independent measurements of the same make/model, and most of the time they look quite different.

 

Ultimately, I remove the thing from the box, place 'em over my ears (or in 'em), and then listen. And it all comes down to that. I do admittedly find the posted headphone measurements (and the private ones I occasionally see) fascinating; but (in my opinion) any one set should be wielded as another data point (along with others' impressions and other measurements), not wielded as a weapon or a presumed final arbiter of what is flawed or perfect.

 

Woops, I forgot you liked these.  My apologies, my post wasn't aimed at you though it may have read that way. 

 

I can see that I came on a little strong and I edited my post to lessen the "if you like these you're an idiot" undercurrent.  Which isn't what I meant.  People look at these threads with such rosey colored glasses it's painful to watch sometimes.  What's the point of contributing real, critical analysis when people just listen to what they want to hear?  After pages of discussion establishing realistic pros and cons, a couple people say nothing more than I like them and suddenly we're back to "they must be wholly amazing!" square one. 

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post #3362 of 3533
6/25/12 at 11:31am
Quote:
Originally Posted by IEMCrazy View Post

 

When I think of RD, "idealist" is probably the last word that comes to mind biggrin.gif  Pessimist sure....idealist, not really...  It's his charm...

 

I don't think you've been here long enough to know where I'm coming from.  You don't know how hard I've tried to find headphones I like.  You can look at the end result as pessimism, but that's a pretty shallow analysis. 

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post #3363 of 3533
6/25/12 at 11:46am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shakakaw View Post

Gosh i though i had join a more serious and mature site.... Seems that i got decived comments like yours are on par with a childs and why is that ? What u are stating is that u give me a 100% Guarantee that the STAX wich cost 2500k IS a must that my ears will like them far better than lets say hd700/800 or Hifiman's high end or even LCD ect ect ? Some people dont understand the word Subjectiv

I own the SR-007 Mk1s (around here referred to as O2s) and have spent many hours with the HD700s with my own equipment. Unless the reviewer has never heard the STAX in question, or their judgement is compromised, there isn't a chance someone could say the HD700s have better frequency extension, or are clearer, than a set of properly functioning O2s. Now, the Sennheisers are definitely more harsh and bass flabby than the STAX, but I'm pretty sure that's not what the reviewer was talking about. HD800 vs. SR-007 is a much more interesting comparison, and they swap blows fairly well, but the HD700s? Umm, no way. As for HiFiMAN's products, the HD700 doesn't even match up well against the cheaper HE-500s, much less a properly driven set of HE-6s.

IMO, even the "lowly" HE-300s are more than a match for the new Sennheisers, they're much more balanced, just as detailed, and have a smoother mid-range. Plus, they're even easier to drive and sound good out of any source. Did I mention they cost $750 less? With the money you save you could grab some nice Grados and a capable amp.

FWIW, used HD800s in excellent condition regularly sell for $1000 in our For Sale forum, now that's a bargain.
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post #3364 of 3533
6/25/12 at 12:42pm

In the context of the HD700 and HD800 comparison, one notion that should be set straight is the HD800 having super special amping or source requirements. While a portable music player won't directly drive the HD800s well, and careful component matching may be needed, nothing else could be further from the truth. The HD800 does just fine from a Auzentech sound card or a AMB Gamma 2 ($190 used) + Objective2 / Matrix M-Stage ($100/$250).

 

The reason people throw good stuff at the HD800 is because they continue to scale. Feed the HD800 better, and it continues to reward. As Magick mentioned above, the HD800s can hold their own in some ways compared to the better stats out there.


Edited by purrin - 6/25/12 at 12:46pm
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post #3365 of 3533
6/25/12 at 1:29pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by purrin View Post

The HD800 does just fine from a Auzentech sound card

Finally someone said it, yes. I use a xonar stx, which is more or less the same.

Now, I played a lot with dsp/vst , and I'm quite  happy with the last results I've achieved (tried with different headphones) ;   so getting a better source is not a priority.

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post #3366 of 3533
6/25/12 at 1:50pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by rhythmdevils View Post

 

I don't think you've been here long enough to know where I'm coming from.  You don't know how hard I've tried to find headphones I like.  You can look at the end result as pessimism, but that's a pretty shallow analysis. 

 

Oh I've been lurking for years before I started posting wink.gif   I'd call the conclusion that basically nobody currently makes what you're looking for to be relatively pessimistic.  Or at least not idealistic biggrin.gif  We're all audiophiles, we're never satisfied, but still...

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Magick Man View Post


I own the SR-007 Mk1s (around here referred to as O2s) and have spent many hours with the HD700s with my own equipment. Unless the reviewer has never heard the STAX in question, or their judgement is compromised, there isn't a chance someone could say the HD700s have better frequency extension, or are clearer, than a set of properly functioning O2s. Now, the Sennheisers are definitely more harsh and bass flabby than the STAX, but I'm pretty sure that's not what the reviewer was talking about. HD800 vs. SR-007 is a much more interesting comparison, and they swap blows fairly well, but the HD700s? Umm, no way. As for HiFiMAN's products, the HD700 doesn't even match up well against the cheaper HE-500s, much less a properly driven set of HE-6s.
IMO, even the "lowly" HE-300s are more than a match for the new Sennheisers, they're much more balanced, just as detailed, and have a smoother mid-range. Plus, they're even easier to drive and sound good out of any source. Did I mention they cost $750 less? With the money you save you could grab some nice Grados and a capable amp.
FWIW, used HD800s in excellent condition regularly sell for $1000 in our For Sale forum, now that's a bargain.

 

You're kidding.  HE-300?  So my HE-400s are...what, a notch above the HD700? That is a truly painful statement if true.  Not that the HE-400s are indeed excellent, but that the HD700 could shoot a bar so low compared to its older cheaper cousin, the 650.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by purrin View Post

In the context of the HD700 and HD800 comparison, one notion that should be set straight is the HD800 having super special amping or source requirements. While a portable music player won't directly drive the HD800s well, and careful component matching may be needed, nothing else could be further from the truth. The HD800 does just fine from a Auzentech sound card or a AMB Gamma 2 ($190 used) + Objective2 / Matrix M-Stage ($100/$250).

 

The reason people throw good stuff at the HD800 is because they continue to scale. Feed the HD800 better, and it continues to reward. As Magick mentioned above, the HD800s can hold their own in some ways compared to the better stats out there.

 

Same is true of 600 and 650.   We could cross our fingers and hope its true of all Senns, including 700...  Or is that too optimistic?

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post #3367 of 3533
6/25/12 at 1:52pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by IEMCrazy View Post

 

Oh I've been lurking for years before I started posting wink.gif   I'd call the conclusion that basically nobody currently makes what you're looking for to be relatively pessimistic.  Or at least not idealistic biggrin.gif  We're all audiophiles, we're never satisfied, but still...

 

I'd call the conclusion that everything is good relatively ignorant and blindly optomistic.

 

I have never upgraded or felt the need to upgrade my speakers.  I paid 800 dollars for a pair of quality powered monitors 8 years ago and have not felt the need for anything more since.  In that time I have tried to find a pair of headphones that will reach a similar level of performance to my monitors and it has been very frustrating.  I believe headphones should perform better than they do.  I'm not pessimistic about anything.  I am realistic about the current state of headphone-dome, and idealistic about the potential that has not been reached. 

 

My assessment of headphones comes from my vision of what they could and should sound like.  If you think that's pessimistic than we have different definitions of the word. 


Edited by rhythmdevils - 6/25/12 at 2:11pm
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post #3368 of 3533
6/25/12 at 1:54pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by IEMCrazy View Post

 


 We could cross our fingers and hope its true of all Senns, including 700...  Or is that too optimistic?

Find the  magical source that would remove the treble peaks. I'm not sure this is even possible with an eq.

The hd700 must be enjoyed for what it is, or it's not worth it.


Edited by extrabigmehdi - 6/25/12 at 1:56pm
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post #3369 of 3533
6/25/12 at 2:16pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by IEMCrazy View Post


You're kidding.  HE-300?  So my HE-400s are...what, a notch above the HD700? That is a truly painful statement if true.  Not that the HE-400s are indeed excellent, but that the HD700 could shoot a bar so low compared to its older cheaper cousin, the 650.
This is specifically about the HE-300 rev.2, not the first batch.

There's different voicing between the HE-300s and 400s. While the HE-400s have better bass extension, the HE-300s have more balanced mids and treble. The 400s have better attack and decay, the 300s have a wider soundstage. Then there's the amazing detail the 300s have for their price. Personally, I prefer the less expensive 300s, overall.
Edited by Magick Man - 6/25/12 at 2:18pm
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post #3370 of 3533
6/25/12 at 2:27pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Magick Man View Post


This is specifically about the HE-300 rev.2, not the first batch.
There's different voicing between the HE-300s and 400s. While the HE-400s have better bass extension, the HE-300s have more balanced mids and treble. The 400s have better attack and decay, the 300s have a wider soundstage. Then there's the amazing detail the 300s have for their price. Personally, I prefer the less expensive 300s, overall.

 

Yeah, they are pretty different in voicing. HE300(r2) vs HE400(r1?).

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post #3371 of 3533
6/25/12 at 4:46pm

Savings for BiFrost (not purchased) plus sell HD650 / Black Dragon = HD700 blink.gif

The HD700 are still on probation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by IEMCrazy View Post

 

Wow, you flip gear faster than I can keep track!   You just saved up for the Bifrost after selling your Lorenz to play with your 650's, and you've already managed to pick up HD700s?  Don't tell me you had to sell the Logans to do it! rolleyes.gif

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post #3372 of 3533
6/25/12 at 8:18pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by IEMCrazy View Post

You're kidding.  HE-300?  So my HE-400s are...what, a notch above the HD700? That is a truly painful statement if true.  Not that the HE-400s are indeed excellent, but that the HD700 could shoot a bar so low compared to its older cheaper cousin, the 650.

 

I haven't heard those HiFiMans but if we're talking about Senn's line up I'd put the HD700s on par with the HD598s but trading Senn's trademark naturalness and smoothness for the usual audiophile faked "clarity".  The only problem is they cost 4x as much as the 598s...

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post #3373 of 3533
6/25/12 at 8:26pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by maverickronin View Post

 

I haven't heard those HiFiMans but if we're talking about Senn's line up I'd put the HD700s on par with the HD598s but trading Senn's trademark naturalness and smoothness for the usual audiophile faked "clarity". 

Well the hd598 seem better according to this description.

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post #3374 of 3533
6/25/12 at 8:28pm

The HD598 is more forgiving on tracks and ears to be sure but still has nice clarity and openness.  I'm a big fan of the 558/598 especially when found at a good value.

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post #3375 of 3533
6/25/12 at 9:24pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by extrabigmehdi View Post

Well the hd598 seem better according to this description.

 

Well that's just my preferences showing though.  I think the 700 does beat the 598 a bit on real clarity (ie not just FR dependent) but those silly peaks and the mild case of double octave eardrum penetrating ringing ruin it for me.

 

At the meet where I head the HD700 somebody had a 598 out of an E7 that I preferred to 700 out of several kilobucks worth of transport, DAC, and amp.

 

OTOH if they cut the HD700's price by at least a third and brought up all the treble to about the level of those peaks I could see liking them since I like to listen at low volumes and V shaped FRs are great for that.  The only problems is that most headphones with that kind of FR are usually too peaky in the treble, have nasty driver ringing there, or both.


Edited by maverickronin - 6/25/12 at 9:32pm
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