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The AKG K 250 (history, pictures, and a review of this forgotten dynamic K 340/K 241 hybrid) - Page 6

post #76 of 231
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by stv014 View Post

 

It does not seem to be quite right, though, as the graphs should not be so noisy with a 20-bit sequence, if the IR is correctly extracted.

 

It was tested while actually wearing the headphones, using an "ear bud" microphone which is basically just a small (1/4") capsule in some foam, similarly to the method someone used in this thread. It was not meant to be reliable in the high frequency range (that is not easy to achieve even with a dummy head, and the presence of the microphone also noticeably affects the treble response), and the measurement is "raw", without any correction. HRTFs are measured at a different position and are more affected by the ear canal, so the equalization curve you have shown cannot be applied to this graph. I could test the treble separately without wearing the headphones - this obviously does not give an accurate frequency response either, but it shows how well the treble is extended, and if there are any obvious driver resonances.

 

It is mostly due to the outer ear, the pinna and the ear canal affecting the frequency response. But to equalize the effects of these, first you need to have them correctly reproduced in the test, i.e. ideally use a dummy head.

 

 

The graphs are noisy indeed (I take it you mean mostly in the lower frequencies?), although I'm only using 1/10 octave smoothing in HOLM as well. Something I've been wondering – can I just record xxxx seconds of the MLS signal and semi-randomly choose an xxx-second clip out of that recording, or do I need to very carefully isolate the entire recorded sequence with millisecond precision in the clip that I feed into HOLM? With white noise you of course don't need to input the entire recording since the sound is random to begin with, but how does it work with MLS?

 

Also, even with the 20-bit sequence, I only recorded one loop of it, so I should do more. The recordings are pretty badly contaminated in the low frequencies by my computer that sits nearby, and as of yet I haven't made an attempt to isolate the mic from that. (Which is what I'll try to do next.)

 

That mic-in-ear thing is pretty neat, though as you say, it doesn't model the ear canal peaks. I saw one picture of Tyll's dummy head that showed the microphone inside the ear, and in that picture it didn't look like it was too deep in there, so I'm wondering at which point the ear canal resonances would be accounted for. But Tyll also did mention that his HRTF EQ was tailored specifically for the dummy head he was using, so who knows. (That thread you linked also shows a picture from the website where I got the idea for the ear canal tube from.) Even given all that, even Tyll has said that no one really knows what the best method of HRTF is – and of course we all have ears of different shapes, which makes it impossible to have objectively accurate response graphs anyway.

 

I believe the diffuse field HRTF was developed from actual human experiments, where researchers had people identify which headphones sounded good to them and the response graphs of those phones were then averaged out into the HRTF, or something like that. But I could be recalling it all wrong. If the former sentence was correct, though, then the DF HRTF would account for the shape of the outer ear including the ear canal, and I would imagine that simply modeling the rough shape of a human ear (with blu-tack if nothing elsesmile.gif) + having the ear canal tube would get you reasonably close for applying that particular HRTF, no?

 

In any case, I'm somewhat wary of using any HRTFs at this point.

 

The ear canal tube thing is pretty neat, though. According to the source-filter theory (though I'm not sure how applicable it is to the ear canal), it doesn't matter that the vocal tract isn't a straight tube, and it doesn't matter that it's made of a mucous membrane and not some hard material – modeling the tract with a rigid, straight tube provides the correct resonance peaks to synthesize human speech (with the more complex speech sounds that have narrowings in the vocal tract, you simply use a setup with many linked tubes, smaller ones in diameter representing the narrowings). In case anyone didn't know and cares, the formula for calculating the resonant peaks in a half-open tube like that is something like this: ((2n - 1) * S) / (4 * L), where S is the speed of sound in cm/sec in air of the given temperature (about 33500 cm/sec, give or take some numbers), L is the length of the tube in cm and n is the nth resonance peak.

post #77 of 231
Quote:
Originally Posted by vid View Post

The graphs are noisy indeed (I take it you mean mostly in the lower frequencies?), although I'm only using 1/10 octave smoothing in HOLM as well.

 

I did not use any smoothing, and with the 20-bit sequence it can be reasonably clean. Although it also depends on how much noise is there in the recording in the first place, but it was not particularly low noise for me.

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by vid View Post

 

Something I've been wondering – can I just record xxxx seconds of the MLS signal and semi-randomly choose an xxx-second clip out of that recording, or do I need to very carefully isolate the entire recorded sequence with millisecond precision in the clip that I feed into HOLM? With white noise you of course don't need to input the entire recording since the sound is random to begin with, but how does it work with MLS?

 

I am not sure how HOLM works, but I guess it should be given the complete original signal (i.e. the 1048575 samples of MLS), and the recorded version of it (I do not know if it is allowed to have leading and/or trailing silence), and it would work out the impulse response from that information. Analyzing a random section of the sequence is not really better than using white noise, in this case the result will also include noise from the test signal.

But if you upload a recorded WAV file with the sequence looped a couple of times, I will check (with the convolution method) how good it can actually be.

 


Edited by stv014 - 2/2/12 at 3:31pm
post #78 of 231
Thread Starter 

I recorded four loops of the 20-bit sequence (which was generated with the number string in your mls.txt) off the KSC75, and uploaded the recording here (10 megs, hope you don't mind the .rar). Note that I did a highpass at 40 Hz on both the recording and the signal, so you may want to do the same to your signal. This highpassing doesn't screw up the MLS, does it?smile.gif

 

If you can't leave any silence in the recording, how in the world would you isolate the signal in it? I guess if you could pinpoint where it starts and measure the given number of samples starting from that point, but...

 

This is the output from HOLM for that recording, red imported with the regular signal and green with the inverse one:

[Deprecated frequency response graph removed. See first post for links to updated graphs.]

 

As I think about it, testing on-ear phones without a physically modeled ear may be asking a bit too much. (Although I'm testing the KSC75 without its foamies, so that might account for some discrepancies.)


Edited by vid - 2/28/12 at 12:46pm
post #79 of 231
Thread Starter 

Well, apparently I should've thought through the act of looping the signal a bit more thoroughly than to simply queue up the signal file four times in the playlist, as the number of signal samples in the recording doesn't seem to quite match up to 4 * 1048575 like it should. I don't know why. The signal file itself is 1048575 samples, though, so I should probably just make another wav where I reproduce the signal x number of times.

 

However, I took my best guess at where the signal started in the above recording and extracted the next 1048575 samples, then loaded that into HOLM along with the signal:

[Deprecated frequency response graph removed. See first post for links to updated graphs.]

 

The red graph has been offset by 10 samples, i.e. it starts 10 samples later than the green one, and terminates 10 samples into the next loop of the signal.

 

Apparently the single loop aligns properly with the signal file, as it's noticeably smoother than the presumably non-aligned one, even though they're both from the same recording (this is with no extra smoothing applied to either line).

 

So, I suppose HOLM does do something right with the MLS recordings. Just need to align them better.

 

(Measurements for the K 250 will most likely be coming tomorrow – sorries for the delay.)

 

EDIT: It seems that HOLM needs some wiggling of its settings after you import a new recording. I need to toggle the FFT size in the Data analysis tab to 19 and then back to 20 after importing a new recording, only then does the program smooth out the graph more properly (this is the same input recording as for the green line above, just colored red for confusion):

[Deprecated frequency response graph removed. See first post for links to updated graphs.]


Edited by vid - 2/28/12 at 12:46pm
post #80 of 231
Quote:
Originally Posted by vid View Post

Well, apparently I should've thought through the act of looping the signal a bit more thoroughly than to simply queue up the signal file four times in the playlist, as the number of signal samples in the recording doesn't seem to quite match up to 4 * 1048575 like it should. I don't know why. The signal file itself is 1048575 samples, though, so I should probably just make another wav where I reproduce the signal x number of times.

 

It is apparently not a looping problem, the signal has been resampled; did you use a different sound card for recording than for playback ? Here is a FLAC format impulse response I created from the recording. I sped it up by a factor of 1.0067893 to correct the length (without that, the result would be completely wrong, but it still may not be perfect), although I am not sure if there were also any gaps between the sequences, but probably not. The frequency response of the middle impulse looks like this after being cropped to 16384 samples:

 

ksc75fr.png


Edited by stv014 - 2/3/12 at 2:44am
post #81 of 231
Thread Starter 

A-ha, the sample rate! See, we're slowly working it out (hopefully). Thanks.smile.gif

 

I completely forgot about the sample rate, although I'm not sure which rate I should be using with MLS to begin with (and considering the generator doesn't output a header to nudge me). I use the same sound card to play the sound as I do to record it, and had it set at 96 kHz. I switched it to 48 kHz. As 96 kHz is exactly twice as much as 48 (and those are the only two options on my sound card), I suppose that I should be using a sample rate of 48 kHz for both the signal file and the recorded file? For whatever reason, I had GoldWave default to a sample rate of 44100 kHz, and so that's what everything was using.

 

This is what I get for a single 20-bit loop when I use 48 kHz everywhere:

[Deprecated frequency response graph removed. See first post for links to updated graphs.]

ksc75impulse.gif

 

Anything looking fishy?

 

I can see that the low frequencies have some more noise compared to yours, but then again, anything below 40 Hz is no man's land, considering that both the recording and the signal have been highpassed at 40 Hz. So whatever's there shouldn't matter much in this particular situation. But if I didn't do a highpass, you'd most likely see a huge peak there, since that's what I see if I simply record the ambient noise.

 

Other than that, it seems like the response graph itself is about as correct (subjectively) as one would get with my equipment, and getting these MLS aspects sorted out will affect how noisy the graph is, rather than its absolute shape. No?

 

Just for the heck of it, I'll try to model some sort of an outer ear out of blu-tack later today and see what that does, too. Just for naive fun.

 

And the K 250 measurement, too. Just want to make sure I'm not measuring everything all wrong as much as possible.


Edited by vid - 2/28/12 at 12:46pm
post #82 of 231
Quote:

Originally Posted by vid View Post

 

I completely forgot about the sample rate, although I'm not sure which rate I should be using with MLS to begin with (and considering the generator doesn't output a header to nudge me).

 

Any sample rate can be used, as long as it is used consistently. Although if the DAC/ADC is limited to supporting only certain sample rate(s) in hardware, then those are preferred to avoid resampling.

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by vid View Post

 

I can see that the low frequencies have some more noise compared to yours, but then again, anything below 40 Hz is no man's land, considering that both the recording and the signal have been highpassed at 40 Hz.

 

I do not think the highpass filtering should be necessary, especially for playback, unless the noise is really very high. When used correctly, the MLS should reduce it significantly. On the DT770 graph I posted, I used no filtering or smoothing at all (other than cropping the extracted IR to a more reasonable length from 1048575 samples (>10s at 96 kHz)), and I did record with a noisy microphone.

 

post #83 of 231
Thread Starter 

Thanks a lot again, stv014. You've helped out quite a bit. For some reason the lower end is just very noisy over here (not a fart joke, this one). When I record, there's a big ambient peak under 40 Hz that's about twice as strong as the strongest signals from the recording. Maybe the interference is just too strong for MLS? I'll do some more testing on it, though.

 

But for now, I did some measuring.

 

5. Frequency graphs

 

(This post used to be linked to from the Quick Contents menu in the first post; but the graphs herein are outdated [measured with non-optimal methods]. See this post for up-to-date graphs. The impulse response graphs presented below are more or less correct, however.)

 

If you stumbled onto this post via clicking on the link in the first post of this thread rather than by reading through the entire thread, let me fill you in on what's happening. Basically, I wanted to do some measurements on the K 250 with something other than my ears (and I'm pretty sure some other people would be interested in those measurements as well). If you want, you can browse back a page or two to see me trying to record the frequency response with less than optimal gear. I still don't have the best gear, or even decent gear, but I did have duct tape and an empty bottle of hand lotion: in this post you can see the recording setup that I'm using for these graphs.

 

I'd like to emphasize again that the microphone I'm using has an unknown frequency response. Based on measurements I did in earlier posts above, it seems that the mic (and the rest of the setup) is reasonably accurate up until about 500-1000 Hz, depending on how trusting you are. After that, it's a little bit less accurate until about 2000 Hz or so, and after that, it gives a rough estimation that may or may not be indicative of what's actually there. I think it's reasonably ok, but I'm not an expert and don't really mind the smallest details.

 

The frequency graphs haven't been HRTF compensated, which means that you might want to mentally push down in volume frequencies higher than 1000 Hz – meaning that if everything above 2000 Hz is 15 dB higher than the bottom end, it might actually even out to relatively flat once the HRTF compensation (which attempts to model the effects of the shape of you ear on the sound) is done. To illustrate, below is the raw frequency response of the K 601.

 

1000x500px-LL-b9c8f02a_hWyfD.png

 

(Here is its compensated response.)

 

Due to my gear being a bit (lots) nonoptimal, I've recorded the frequency graphs of some other headphones as well, so the measurements have some context.

 

Also, as I'm experiencing severe noise in the very low frequencies, the graphs DO NOT include information below 40 Hz, regardless of how the headphones perform there.

 

Finally, most of these graphs feature a peak at around 3 kHz and also at about 10 kHz. I believe (and hope) that this is due to the simulated ear canal that my recording setup uses, which would create resonance peaks at those frequencies.

 

AKG K 250 (you can click on all these images to give them an enlarging):

[Deprecated frequency response graph removed. See first post for links to updated graphs.]

AKG K 250 impulse response

(^ Grey line is the impulse.)

AKG K 250 square wave 300 Hz

(Note about my square wave graphs: they all have lots of tiny little hills. I don't think those hills are entirely part of the response of the headphones themselves, but rather partly a result of my homely recording setup. The sw graphs that I'm posting are, however, comparable between each other if nothing else, since they were all recorded with the same setup.)

 

AKG K 340 (no cotton in cups):

[Deprecated frequency response graph removed. See first post for links to updated graphs.]

AKG K 340 impulse response

AKG K 340 square wave 300 Hz

(I believe that the impulse response graphs are somewhat reliable. You can find Tyll's K 340 measurements, including impulse response and square wave, here. His IR is definitely quite similar to what I measured, and I assume it's not just random chance.)

 

Beyerdynamic DT 990 (1980s):

[Deprecated frequency response graph removed. See first post for links to updated graphs.]

Beyerdynamic DT 990 (1980s) impulse response

Beyerdynamic DT 990 (1980s) square wave 300 Hz

 

AKG K 141 (1970s):

[Deprecated frequency response graph removed. See first post for links to updated graphs.]

AKG K 141 (1970s) impulse response

AKG K 141 (1970s) square wave 300 Hz

 

That's it.

 

I've also modeled a human-like ear out of blu-tack and done some experiments with that in my recording setup. The results, with HRTF applied, are reasonable, but might still be quite wrong as well. I wanted to take some measurements of the above headphones with the ear incorporated, but had no time today. I'll do it over the weeked and post the results.

 

As far as the response graphs above go, the thing that caught my eye was the similarity of the K 250 and K 340 response graphs. Here they are overlaid on each other:

[Deprecated frequency response graph removed. See first post for links to updated graphs.]

 

The K 250 graph is basically a smoothed-out K 340 with more treble. Really strange – but that's what I perceive with my ears as well. (I should note, again, that my amp is likely not nearly good enough for the K 340.)

 

You can get Tyll's K 240 Sextett measurements here. There seem to be some similarities in his raw FR data to my raw measurement of the K 250, but mostly in the treble, and that's where the measurement-related uncertainties lie. The 300 Hz square waves look quite similar, even though the 240's are better defined – something that, again, may or may not be due to my recording setup.

 

That's all I have time for today, but I'll play around more with these graphs over the weekend. I'll try to get measurements with the blu-tack ear – it should be interesting, even if not necessarily accurate not scientific.


Edited by vid - 2/28/12 at 12:47pm
post #84 of 231
those are only the EP version though. i don't know why it's not mentioned in the graph. the MP and LP use different passive drivers and bit different driver enclosure and drivers cause some sextetts has the reflective domes and some don't and the different cases has different amount of holes behind the driver like my one lp had a white casing with 3 small holes in the back and my other LP's has a red driver casing with 3 large holes in the back. each sextett varies between one another.
post #85 of 231
Thread Starter 

Oh yeah, I forgot to make that Sextett EP/MP/LP distinction myself. Has someone ever measured the differences between them?

 

I didn't know the EPs use different passive diaphragms – really? It's a different color, sure, but any actual differences?smile.gif They look pretty similar in pictures, though I think I've read people say that the later models have less bass.

 

The problem is, each pair of vintage headphones potentially varies from any other pair of that same vintage model, regardless of any changes in design during production. Two or three decades of use and all that. So, we're all playing with fire by measuring and indeed even by discussing them. But it's interesting, so...

 

I'm a bit surprised that the K 250 seems to have smoother low end than the (EP) Sextett, considering that, as far as I know, the passive diaphragms were supposed to even it out. The K 250 looks very smooth there.

 

The K 340, on the other hand, looks somewhat unfortunate considering how much praise they get. Tyll measured the same shaky response, and I can hear it with my ears as well. They're still a good pair of phones, but a bit curious. (Working on the 250 vs. 340 comparison.)

 

And while we were on the topic of bass, here is one contemporary FR measurement of the vintage K 141. My graph is very similar up until 3 kHz, which, again, makes me quite sure that the measurements are quite accurate at least up to about 1 kHz or so. After 3 kHz, though, the agreement in line shape ends. I'll have to listen to my pair of 141s to see if they indeed have a dip after 3 kHz or not.

 

I'm also getting a suspicion that my mic or some other part of the recording setup is exaggerating the valley between 1 and 2 kHz or so. But then again, it could also be my source that does that.

 

I did a quick test with my artificial ear this morning (sorry, no pictures of the gorgeous blu-tack appendage yet). Here's the graph of that – the vintage DT 990 (so again, not the modern version of it):

[Deprecated frequency response graph removed. See first post for links to updated graphs.]

 

Blue graph is the original one that I posted yesterday (i.e. it models the ear canal only).

Violet graph is recorded with the blu-tack ear + the usual ear canal.

Green graph is the same recording as the violet one, but a diffuse field HRTF was applied.

 

(I think I read that the vintage DT 990s are diffuse field equalized, but I'm not sure.)

 

I did some listening tests with the 990s to see whether there was any truth to the compensated (green) graph. Just by looking at it, it would indicate that the 990s are bassy (whereas the original blue graph doesn't quite say that). They are.

 

As I mentioned above, I think my mic is exaggerating the dip between 1 and 2 kHz. I can hear a dip, though, but I'm not sure if it's that large. I also hear the peak around 3 kHz, which would likely be the ear canal resonance. I don't think my own ear canal is the same length as my recording canal, but the resonance is there.

 

The blue graph shows three peaks in the upper treble, while the compensated green one has them smoothed out. I can hear peaking in that range, but not all of the ones indicated by the blue graph and not as loud, so the green one is possibly slightly more correct – but we're talking slightly educated guesses here rather than absolute truths.

 

Overall, I do think the green graph, i.e. HRTF compensated with fake ear, gives a more accurate suggestion of the sound. How much more correct this is, I don't know, but it reflects what I hear a bit better.

 

I'll take some more measurements (including of the K 250) with the fake ear either tonight or tomorrow, and I'll get a picture of the ear too. It's not perfect by any means, but worth testing.

 

(As always, anyone is encouraged to point out [or guess at] any errors they perceive in the graphs.)


Edited by vid - 2/28/12 at 12:47pm
post #86 of 231
there is slight difference with the EP,MP,LP and there is even difference between each model as well cause akg like reusing parts so even for example one MP is different from another MP due to possible different driver casings but vary a bit if at all maybe. i don't know since all i owned in the past are lp models and i have NOS AKG 240 sextett lp that i completely rewired with 18awg wiring and terminated with 4-pin xlr connector for speaker output use and of course i made adapters as well to be used off headphone jacks, balanced 1/4'' outputs and even pre-outs. my sextetts has all new solder joints and completely refurbished as well.

i heard the EP being most bass heavy version and LP being the least but i kinda doubt that somewhat cause my lp's can slam hard and give you headaches with it's deep bass extension and powerful impact. i found the sextetts though are very output impedance dependant as well(well mine are) cause they work best off close to 0ohm output impedance off of speaker outputs if you want a very tight controlled bass impact. seem higher the output impedance the bass will seem like it's getting stronger and will warm up the sound bit but it's really cause of the loosen up mid-bass going on from high output impedance. maybe the 250 is the same way and output impedance dependent? have you tried? i know my 240DF is as well output impedance dependent as well and loves speaker outputs.
post #87 of 231
Thread Starter 

No idea how the K 250 reacts to different sources. I'm not really a bass person to be honest – I EQ down the bass on my Blox M2C ear buds. As long as it's tight and lean, it's fine. And to be honest a second time, I haven't analyzed the bass on the K 250 too much yet. Not sure if it's tight or not, but it hasn't bothered me so far. I'll take another look at it once I get around to making the comparison against the K 340.

 

5. Frequency graphs (HRTF compensated)

 

(These measurements are outdated. See here for up-to-date graphs.)

 

Yes, there are people who will model an ear out of blu-tack.

 

mic-ear-1.jpg

 

The measurements are written on there. 5 (about 5.5 actually) cm tall and 4 cm wide.

 

mic-ear-2.jpg

 

mic-ear-3.jpg

 

So it's not perfect, but I've tried to model at least some of the important (or what I thought important) ridges and flaps. The curves on the real human ear are veeeeery smooth, and I'm not sure how much it matters that my blu-tack ear is kind of ragged. I can see right off that the placement of the ear canal hole isn't too good, but I can improve on that. (Blu-tack isn't the best material for this anyway, although at least it's flexible.)

 

When recording, the ear is sat on top of the ear canal hole that leads into the microphone. I made sure to align the ear hole properly with the hole on the ear canal tube and to make sure the seal around there was good. (Having the ear on top of the ear canal tube makes the ear canal slightly longer, which you can see in the graphs as a shifting of the 3 kHz peak towards the left.)

 

In the graphs below, the top-most line (violet) represents the recordings from yesterday where I only modeled the ear canal resonances. The bottom line is the one recorded with the ear and with the following diffuse field HRTF applied:

dfhrtf.gif

 

(Reproduced from this graph.)

 

AKG K 250:

[Deprecated frequency response graph removed. See first post for links to updated graphs.]

 

The HRTF compensated green graph captures a dip around 10 kHz that I can hear in a sine sweep and which isn't quite so clearly (if at all) represented in the violet graph. The size of the peak at 3 kHz in relation to the peak at ~4 kHz is better represented by the green graph, as is the shape of the "plateau" between 2.5 and 4 kHz. The green graph has seemingly (possibly) captured the post-4 kHz dip that I have been talking about quite a few times.

 

Neither graph is 100 % correct as far as I hear with my ears, but then my ears aren't shaped like the blu-tack ear I used. In broad terms, I think the green graph does a better job out of these two of portraying the sound of the K 250.

 

AKG K 340:

[Deprecated frequency response graph removed. See first post for links to updated graphs.]

 

Here again we have the dip at 10 kHz in the compensated graph. This time I can't hear it in a sine sweep, even though it's quite prominent on the graph. Otherwise the green graph is more accurate between 2 and 5 kHz (and again captures the post-4 kHz dip better). Neither graph is quite close to what I hear between 6 and 11 kHz, but the green one does a bit better. Overall, the K 340 that I have sounds a bit dark, and the green graph conveys that better.

 

AKG K 141 (1970s):

[Deprecated frequency response graph removed. See first post for links to updated graphs.]

 

I checked my pair of vintage K 141, and they indeed have no dip at 3 kHz, so I don't know what these guys were measuring with their '10 dB valley'. Maybe mine is a later production version where AKG corrected the dip, lord knows. This time, though, the violet graph I think has a better indication of the 3.5 kHz peak. Otherwise, the graphs are more or less the same – the K 141 is an on-ear rather than covering the entire ear – although I think (if I remember right) the green one was a bit better above 10 kHz, but at those frequencies it's a huge guessing game anyways.

 

So, I think the fake ear isn't doing too bad. Better than not having it, although I'm sure it can be improved on massively.


Edited by vid - 2/28/12 at 12:47pm
post #88 of 231
Thread Starter 

I've been spending some time figuring out the microphone I'm using to record the graphs, and I've made two simple calibrations to it based on the correlation of measurements to what I hear. I've also come to understand (or to come to think I understand) better the way the HRTF compensation is applied. The resulting graphs seem (in the case of the K 250) to agree with what I hear quite well, and other graphs (in the case of the K 340) seem to agree better than before with what Tyll has measured.

 

I'll take some time either tonight or tomorrow to re-measure the K 340 (averaging multiple measurements this time). I already re-did the K 250 and DT 990, so I'll post the new measurements once I have the K 340 done (I'd like to have some context rather than just posting the K 250 measurements by themselves). Consider the graphs I posted above outdated (but indicative).

 

If someone would like me to measure the K 340 with velour pads in addition to the pleather ones, let me know. I won't do it by default, because I'm lazy, but I'll get it done if someone should find the information useful.

 

(A random musing to certain people in a certain country: I personally wouldn't pay about 80 euros for the K 250; not unless it came in very good condition...)


Edited by vid - 2/8/12 at 8:19am
post #89 of 231
Thread Starter 

A note on the frequency graphs: As I keep adding more graphs, keep in mind that, since the artificial ear I use is made of blu-tack, it will slightly change its shape as the weeks go by. That means there will be variations in the response graphs as a function of time, f.e. they may develop a dip somewhere in the treble that wasn't present in earlier measurements. For this reason, if I really need to compare a new graph to and old one, I re-measure the old one as well. When you compare older graphs to newer ones, keep in mind to not look too closely into the details in the graph, like individual peaks or dips, but rather pay attention only to the overall shape of the graph (relationship between bass, mids and treble, for instance).

 

Another note: Frequency graphs of various kinds are scattered here and there in this thread. The graphs in this particular post represent only a selected few of those. You can browse the thread for more graphs if you feel adventurous; and if not, it's possible that you may not be missing anything too important.

 

5. Frequency graphs (Update: 11 Mar 2012)

 

Alright, peeps (anyone still use "peeps" for people?). As I outlined in my post above, I've done some experiments and figuring-outs and so on on how to record better measurements.

 

I'll go over the details of how my measuring setup has changed, including the mic calibrations and that, but first I'll just unload the graphs. If you're interested in the background stuff, you can read the whole post; if not, you can take in the graphs and leave.

 

Each graph is immediately followed by a description of what I heard in sine sweeps for that particular headphone.

 

Measurements were taken with an artificial ear setup. Three measurements were taken of each headphone and averaged into the result (1: ear in the center of the cup; 2: ear slightly upwards from the center; 3: ear slightly downwards from the center). The black line shows the result with 1/3 octave smoothing (given the somewhat tentative nature of my recording setup), and the light grey line has the unsmoothed result.

 

(Note that there is a tiny peak at 50 Hz in all graphs – ambient interference I assume, but feel free to offer guesses or knowledge on that as well.)

 

AKG K 250

AKG K 250 - FR 40-14000 Hz

 

In my post here you can read my pre-measurement description of a K 250 sine sweep. For ease of browsing, I quote it here entirely: "Sound starts around 30 Hz, climbs up until it stabilizes around 150-170 Hz, then stays reasonably flat (remember, this is by ear) from 170 to 2000 Hz. A broad hill (I didn't note the relative amplitude change, but it wasn't a massive one) between 2300 and 4000 Hz, having its peak somewhere around 3400 Hz and ending at a very noticeable, narrow notch between 4100 and 4300 Hz (it's quite deep, and I don't think I've heard anything like it on other phones). Reasonably flat again between 4300 and 9000 Hz. Peak at 9700 Hz; peak at 11500 Hz; starts seriously falling after 12000 Hz; tiny peak around 14000 Hz, <my hearing presumably fades out somewhere around 16 kHz>."

 

The description matches the graph surprisingly well, considering that the treble area is the most difficult to measure correctly (and, to a degree, it can't be measured to fully match how you would hear it).

 

This is what I heard when I did some sine sweeps after taking the measurement: Possibly hear a slight hike up in volume at 170 Hz – a slight notch at ~380 Hz, which is also visible on the graph, though it could be something else as well – curves down slightly, starting at 1.8 kHz, then leads into a peak at 3 kHz – peak takes a dip at ~4 k Hz and quickly goes up after that – comes down at 6 kHz, has another peak at 7 kHz, goes down after that – peaks at 10 kHz, then a dip, then peaks at ~11.5 kHz.

 

I love the graph; the K 250 has to be the ultimate in Grado-like AKG.

 

I think the microphone is slightly exaggerating the area around 5 kHz, but I can't be sure and don't want to make further calibrations willy-nilly, so I'll leave it at that until I have more measurements under my belt to either confirm or negate that suspicion.

 

AKG K 340

AKG K 340 - FR 40-14000 Hz

 

You can find measurements by Tyll (a guy with an expensive measuring box) of the K 340 here. My graph is both similar and dissimilar to what Tyll measured. Mine doesn't have the big treble peak at 9 kHz, although rhythmdevils (whose pair it is that Tyll measured) says the phones are bright in the treble, which my pair definitely isn't. My graph doesn't have the same valley at 5-7 kHz or so either, but that may be due to the fact that I've taken out all the cotton from my pair. My graph and Tyll's both have the dip at around 1.3 kHz, which Tyll makes a specific note about, and there's a small ledge leading into it in both graphs. The relationship between the extremes of the mids seem similar in both graphs. My K 340 seem to have better-extended bass, so they might just be the bass heavy version, if there is such a thing. Given that I've taken out the cotton, you might well see a bigger curve in the bass if I hadn't.

 

Here's what I heard in a few sine sweeps after the measurement: Bass sounds reasonably even from 40 Hz on – has a slight upwards movement around 150 Hz – maybe getting slightly louder at 300 Hz – starts to go down slightly around 580 Hz – goes up a bit after 1 kHz, then takes a dip at ~1.2 kHz – goes up and down after that – a slightly bigger peak compared the the other ones at 2.2 kHz – takes a dip after that, then peaks at 3.1 kHz – travels downwards until ends at a noticeable, narrow dip at 4.1 kHz – goes up from there to 4.5 kHz, but not quite as high as on the graph; maybe about the same level as the 2.2 kHz peak – reasonably stable until 6 kHz where takes a gradual dip that rolls down until 7 kHz – a notable peak at 9 kHz – another at 10.5 kHz – takes a nosedive at 13 kHz.

 

Beyerdynamic DT 990 (1980s)

Beyerdynamic DT 990 (1980s) - FR 40-14000 Hz

 

(As a bonus, I've measured the 990s with both the original and the modern pads.)

 

I've no idea if anyone else has measured the vintage DT 990 (probably has), but if you know more, lemme know.

 

My notes from some sine sweeps after the measurement (with modern pads): Bass climbs up gently until about 110 Hz – a slight dip-let at 120 Hz – bass seems to start rolling off at about 250 Hz, but I can't be absolutely sure – seems to climb a bit around 500 Hz – peak at 3.5 kHz, comes down by 4 kHz – peak at 6.3 kHz – big peak at 9.3 kHz – takes a dip at 11.5 kHz – peak at 15 kHz.

 

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The graphs below were added at later dates (see links to corresponding posts).

 

AKG K 240 DF

AKG K 240 DF frequency response and channel balance

 

Philips SBC 3178 (presumed AKG K 260)

Philips SBC 3178 - FR 40-13000 Hz

(Take the treble with a bit of salt, as I didn't have the original foam disc for the baffle; instead I used a bit of cloth over it.)

 

AKG K 241

AKG K 241 frequency response

 

K 250 measured in different pad/foam configurations

AKG K 250 frequency response with various baffle topping configurations

 

Comparison between K 241, K 250, and K 240 DF; measured roughly on the same day

k241-pads-foams-fr.png

 

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^ That's the end of the graphs. Now, about my measuring setup.

 

I still use the same blu-tack ear and fake ear canal, but I made some changes in the way I implement the (diffuse field) HRTF compensation. I also calibrated the microphone better (this is a problematic excercise, because I don't know the microphone's frequency response).

 

Below is the microphone calibration curve I used:

mic_calib.gif

 

It consists of two things. First, a +5 dB hump between 1.5 and 2.5 kHz or so. This I felt was necessary because in earlier measurements that area was recessed way more than what I perceived, and indeed a valley was created where I heard none. The second thing is a smooth +3.5 dB or so boost to all frequencies above 500 Hz. If you look at my earlier graphs of the K 250, you'll note that it has about a 7 dB bass hump. But the problem is, there's no way a pair of headphones that a non-basshead (me) perceives as bass-lite could have a bass curve like that. Part of the problem was the presumably incorrect way I was applying the HRTF, but even withouth HRTF compensation the bass curve seemed off. I didn't know how much off it was, so I compromised by giving higher frequencies the 3.5 dB boost to lift them closer to the bass. This seems to have resulted in a more accurate graph based on what I hear.

 

As I said, I also changed the way I apply HRTF compensation. I used to EQ it in, but while looking at Tyll's graphs (http://www.innerfidelity.com), I noticed that his HRTF compensation seems to target specific frequencies while leaving others untouched. So, for instance, his bass curve doesn't seem to get tilted upwards in the compensated graph like it would if you EQ'd the HRTF in. It seems that applying the HRTF is simply a straightforward subtraction, which is what I've done in the graphs in this post.

 

I also did, as I said at the beginning, three separate measurements and averaged them together ((a + b + c) / 3) into the final graph. The official recommendation seems to be five measurements, but it gets a bit tedious, so I've cut corners.

 

As far as the response curve of the K 250 goes, it seems really flat, and basically that's how I hear it up until 2 kHz or so. There seems to be no "ideal tilt" to it, i.e. a graph that's slightly higher in the bass region and generally travels down a slight curve downwards to the treble. I don't quite understand why AKG had the 250 emphasize the treble region so much, either, as they seem quite neutral otherwise.

 

If someone has an idea of where the K 250 sort of curve might be useful (some specific studio job, etc.), let us know. Thanks.


Edited by vid - 4/14/12 at 5:18pm
post #90 of 231
fun fact: all akg headphones before the 240DF and 240 monitors are free-field equalized(basically anything with the sextetts drivers). the 240DF was the first diffused-field equalized headphone AKG ever done. after the 240DF AKG continues to use Diffused-field. all the K4x, k5x, k6x, k7x series are all diffused-field. the 240 studio and 27x and 24x series are diffused-field as well but none of them are not done the same fashion as the 240DF. sennheiser was actually gonna go same route as the 240DF for the hd600,650 and even hd800 but decided to do their own modified type of diffused-field and not fellow the IRT standards. the k601 and k701 are just modified k4x and k5x series with different pads and different density foam discs around the drivers. just saying, if anyone didn't know.

also have you tested my theory on output impedance? it makes a difference for some reason. and a nice difference too with tighter bass response and clarity. i haven't heard my sextetts is while but do remember there response on multiple sources and bettering the k601 in every way still with far more extension,air and midrange clarity.
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