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Impedance Question for amping iems

post #1 of 5
Thread Starter 

Ok, I've tried, but I'm stuck. I didn't know where to ask this question and it seemed like the DIY community here would have the largest number of technically knowlegable people who aren't going to spout a lot of nonsense.  My dad was an EE, but I'm completely out of my depth here. Any advise and/or clarification would be much appreciated.

 

 

I read a few places that low impedance iems could be run very well directly out of certain dacs without an amplifier and sound fantastic because of the lack of degredation, etc.

First off, is this true?  What, if any, are the potential things to look out for in running a dac directly to a headphone and controlling volume in the digital domain?

 

For my setup, I have a macbook pro using a toslink to 1) an eastern electric minimax tube dac, or 2) a yulong d100 dac; or a usb to a 3) dacport lx.  

My only headphones are the JH13's, which have 29 Ohm impedance.    

 

I've been trying to get the line out specs, but it seems like everyone lists them partially or not at all.

 

The dealer told me that the minimax has a 200 ohm impedance out using the solid state and 2000 ohm using the tube.

There's no listing for the D100 line out specs.   

There's no listing for the Centrace Dacport LX because this http://centrance.com/products/dacport/ is for the regular amped dacport.  The only thing they list that I know is for the LX is that the output is "+6dBV" (??!??)

 

The modder of the hiface, John Kenny, has said that his new sabre-based JKDAC can drive a range of headphones directly without an amplifier, and he seems to like that idea, but he doesn't list the specs for the unit.  I've asked him, and am waiting to see what he says.

 

In terms of my own tests, the dacport lx to JH13 is incredibly loud and usually needs to be attenuated about -20db. It sounds incredible in the mids and highs, but lacks a bit of bass.

 

The Yulong D100 line out to JH13 sounds clearer and less muddy than the low impedance amp output, but it too lacks a bit of bass power and articulation. It is also on the quiet side, being almost a perfect match without any attenuation at all, but a bit too quiet on some classical recordings.

 

The EE minimax doesn't work with the JH13s.  It's too quiet even on the SS, and the tube output is practically inaudible.  Plus there seemed like there might be some distortion, so I didn't continue testing.  Obviously a mismatch.

 

The only amp I currently possess is the ibasso T3D, which is ok, but obviously not a stellar amp.  It does pretty much what the amp on the yulong does - thickens, darkens and muddies the sound, giving more bass presence and removing lots of detail and articulation.  

 

I have a Pico Slim amp coming next week to test, and they list the following: 

  • Signal-to-Noise Ratio >100dB
  • Total Harmonic Distortion 0.003%
  • Gain up to 2x/6dB
  • Input Impedance 10K ohms
  • Output Impedance less than 1 ohm
  • Output Voltage 4V peak-to-peak, 1.4Vrms
  • Output Power 0.35Wrms w/ 32 ohm load

 

I read somewhere about a 8x impedance rule?  So 29/8 would be less than 4 ohm output impedance as ideal for the JH13s?  If that's the case, the 1 ohm output seems good, but could I even hook this up to the Minimax, given that it has a 200 ohm output and the imput here is listed as 10 ohm?  What is the power and voltage mean on this?  I've seen output power at 32ohm ranging from .35w to .9w or higher - is there some number I should be shooting for?  Just the more the better?  

 

I'm guessing the dacport lx will work best with the pico slim, and I know the pico slim sounds incredible with the JH13, because I used to own one, but that's not really what I'm interested in.  I wanted to see if I could use all my money on a really good dac instead of splitting it 50/50 between a lesser dac and a lesser amp.  And I don't want to get an amp (or a dac/amp) that is mainly for 600 ohm headphones and just added on low impedance as an afterthought, because these are my ONLY headphones, and I have no interest in driving the HE-6 or the LCD-3.

 

If anyone could lend a hand with these numbers, I'd really appreciate it.  Thanks!

 

-andrew 

 

 

 

post #2 of 5

First off, they list 29 ohms but this is just some nominal value.  IEMs with multiple balanced armatures often have crazy-looking impedance over frequency curves.  I'm not sure about the JH13, which has 6 armatures, but as an example, check out the Shure SE535 (3 armatures) here:

 

http://www.innerfidelity.com/images/ShureSE535.pdf

 

So it's probably less than 29 ohms at some frequencies and perhaps a lot more at others.

 

Decreasing volume in the digital domain with 16-bit output and sensitive IEMs generally means losing some detail.  Reducing the volume means you're throwing away bits (dividing everything by a certain amount). If the DAC is operating with 24-bit output, then it shouldn't be an issue.

 

You're just looking for an amplifier with low noise that performs well into low impedances.  As you mention, low output impedance is in theory preferred to avoid large FR shifts with those IEMs.  (If something else  that's worse in theory sounds better to you though, then feel free to go with that.)  You could pretty much just ignore output power specs, since every device will have enough.  As you say, who cares if they can drive HE-6 with 2W if 1mW to the JH13 will blast your ears off?  Good channel balance at low volumes would be important.  1x or otherwise low gain would also be better.

 

I don't see any reason to prefer having one device over two.  Most DACs really shouldn't be driving headphones well unless they have something resembling a headphone amplifier inside.  If it's not supposed to have a headphone amplifier, the output is probably buffered by some chip that is not really spec'd to handle low impedances well.  Either you use a DAC with an integrated amp or a DAC and a separate amp?  It's not much different either way.

 

It looks like the CEntrance DACport DAC section is very good anyhow.  Even the original DACport into 300 ohms (so stressing the headphone amp a little) shows really nice performance.  DACport LX into a headphone amplifier should be better than that, so you can forget about the DAC if you want and just figure out what amp will work well for your JH13s.

 

http://www.stereophile.com/content/centrance-dacport-usb-headphone-amplifier-measurements


Edited by mikeaj - 12/26/11 at 9:06pm
post #3 of 5

audio output step down transformer could be a good choice for driving iem - but good Ni hi perm core xfmr cost $, and the application is odd enough that there probably isn't an ideal "off the shelf" part sized for iem step down

 

cheap iron core audio output xmfr may still be better than many amp choices for iem drive

 

http://www.head-fi.org/t/553094/continued-sidetrack-discussion-from-tiniest-portable-amp-i-can-build-nikongod-microtransformer-based-impedance-step-down-box


Edited by jcx - 12/26/11 at 10:53pm
post #4 of 5
Thread Starter 

 

Do you need to worry about the output impedance of your source matching the imput impedance of your amp?

 

Because the Minimax, for example, has either a 200 ohm or a 3000 ohm output impedance. But I've seen some amps saying their imput impedance is less than 100 Ohms.  Does this matter at all?   

post #5 of 5

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by AVU View Post

Do you need to worry about the output impedance of your source matching the input impedance of your amp?

 

Because the Minimax, for example, has either a 200 ohm or a 3000 ohm output impedance. But I've seen some amps saying their imput impedance is less than 100 Ohms.  Does this matter at all?   


It depends what you are trying to do. 

 

For multidriver IEM's you want 2 things. 

LOW output impedance. 2ohms or less. 

Low noise. The standards for this one are kind of loose but look for reviews or see if you can attend a meet and hear one of the amps you are interested in.

Everything else is a distraction, ignore it. 

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