Do I need a DAC? Do DACs need to be burnt in?

Don't get started about burn-in, it's a complex and messy issue in which lots of people like to jump up and down on their soapbox and disscussions quickly turn into pissing matches over the nature of "science".  Maybe ask in the sound science forum. Quickly, some caps take time to form, others don't. Personally, I think of it as not only a hardware issue, but as a psychological issue - not in the sense that you get "fooled" but that you learn to hear differently.  I like to use an analogy from wine or coffee or whisky or any good food.  First time you taste them, you might go yuk, I don't like this.  But if that's all you ever did, you'd probably stay a teenager eating twinkies and french fries and anything with ample amounts of starch, grease, sugar and salt.  Real food is an acquired taste.  Audio doesn't work just like this, but you do learn to hear "differently" and you do need to educate your ears as to what to listen for.  As Plato put it 2500 years ago, ignorance is bliss - if you want to save your money, just run away from hi-fi and forget you ever heard about it. What you don't know can't hurt you, and once you've had good wine, or good coffee or good whisky, or good audio, it's terribly hard to accept inferior things. But mechanically, it depends on what's inside the device.  I'd imagine many things don't have any burn in at all.  But I have no idea - I go by what I hear. Just be careful to give yourself some time to evaluate things - you're usually not going to be able to tell in one sitting.

Your specific question is easier.  Try a udac for a week and see what you think.  They have them on amazon for $99 and you can return it.  Apple products were more focused towards art and music anyway, so their built-in sound is good.  Will a dac make it better?  Depends on the dac.  An expensive dac certainly will. A super cheap dac may not.  But those grados, despite their cost, are pretty revealing, and the udac is a good unit for the price, so I'd shoot for something like that.  Around $100-$150 will buy you a great dac/amp combo that would indeed sound good.  Audinst is another. headfonia.com has some more.  Try to by something you can return, or buy it used so that you can sell it without losing much money if you decide it's not for you.

cheers,

andrew 

Some entry DACs you can consider are Udac2, HRT Streamer II, Audinst MX1, all are fantastic dacs/preamps. Will definitely make a difference on the grados. If you want small and portable, Udac2 is not bad. Desktop use both HRT and Audinst are excellent and high quality units. As for burn in, all i can say is BURN IT IN if you're curious or if it bugs you. Try to avoid those burn in discussion which we have way too many already.

Avoid the uDAC, it has problems. You'll need an amp with the HRT Music Streamer because it's only a DAC and isn't designed to drive headphones. For your uses something from Fiio would work, the E7 or E10.

But unless you're getting audible noise and interference from your onboard sound, I would wait and upgrade the headphones first. Onboard sound can be better than people think, and I've never heard much of a difference from any amps or DACs I've tried.

Short answer, no, you don't need a dac.  Nor do you need an amp.  Esp for those headphones. They should sound fine.  If you get something like the Audinst - there's one for $150 used on the forum now - it would be so that you could later upgrade your headphone to something better and have an amp/dac that would keep up.  

if you dont need a dac, then a small amp might do it. I got great results with the Pa2v2 paired up with my Sr80i. Sounded really good.

Quote:

Originally Posted by eclipes 

if you dont need a dac, then a small amp might do it. I got great results with the Pa2v2 paired up with my Sr80i. Sounded really good.

He's using it with a laptop. He would need to connect the amp to the laptop somehow. The only viable way to do this is with a digital connection, USB, optical, or S/PDIF. Otherwise he's just going to be amping the analog signal from his headphone jack, which will do nothing but make it louder and increase distortion and noise even more.

Hence he would inevitably need an external DAC of some sort.

I have a macbook pro and just sold my Grado 325is.  I do believe they sounded good running of my 09 13" headphone jack. When I got my iBasso D12 using my optical port I did hear a better sound presence.  To me it sounded like I was closer to the stage instead of the second floor balcony. After upgrading the opamp and buffer I noticed a change in levels throughout the frequencies, kind of like messing with my eq settings.

ibassio d12 was a fine dac for me, but the amp section was really lacking for some reason. I bought it as a portable amp in the beginning but the end the DAC was the better bit of the d12.

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bronco628 

I have a macbook pro and just sold my Grado 325is.  I do believe they sounded good running of my 09 13" headphone jack. When I got my iBasso D12 using my optical port I did hear a better sound presence.  To me it sounded like I was closer to the stage instead of the second floor balcony. After upgrading the opamp and buffer I noticed a change in levels throughout the frequencies, kind of like messing with my eq settings.

 

Simple answer : No

Adding a DAC may improve the quality but at what price point is it worth it to you personally. I just got a Fiio E10 to use with a 2008 Macbook. Before I picked it up I never had issue with how my headphones (Grado SR225/Sony V6/Koss KSC75) sounded out of the headphone output but I also had nothing to compare the sound against. After using it for a couple weeks the sound is improved but it's a very SUBTLE change. I have to actively listen to hear the differences and that's between taking the time to switch back and forth and play tracks to hear it. 

If you're willing to spend $250, $500, $1,000 etc on a DAC I'm sure the improvements will be more noticeable but our ears are all different. Ultimately it's up to you and your ears (and your wallet) to make that call.

Spending that money on a different set of headphones with a different sound signature might be a better place to spend your money.

Quote:

Originally Posted by AVU 
But if that's all you ever did, you'd probably stay a teenager eating twinkies and french fries and anything with ample amounts of starch, grease, sugar and salt.

As French, I love reading about dietetics from an American. 
Regarding the explanation I totally agree. For me, the burn-in is get used to new sounds no magic that will transform your amp /headset that sounds better.

Just my unsolicited 2 cents:

I think you'll be just fine with your onboard audio for now - while I've heard some seriously terrible onboard audio-outs (Acer comes to mind...), I own an HP Compaq with a fantastic audio-out that at least somehow drove HD 595s semi-decently. Of course, it paled in comparison to even a uDAC, but it's still more than enough to get a Grado running smooth enough.

And a few points:

I pretty much share the comments here - solid state components don't really have "burn-in", and it's mainly you getting used to an unfamiliar sound. But I do believe in burn in for the mechanical components of headphones, perhaps also for tubes and "analog"-y things. Solid state electronics, not ever. And even if they somehow underwent some magical transformation, the sound should get worse, because it's more likely that the parts inside are approaching their lifespan. I'm not really sure where this whole idea of burn-in for such components came from, actually. Perhaps it was just there because people couldn't describe their getting used to the music? The mind boggles.

Impedance actually doesn't play as large a role in how easy a headphone is to drive, compared to its sensitivity. See here for more discussion.

Do you mean after the supposed "burn in"? Or do you mean a case where switching over to using a DAC as opposed to the onboard audio made the sound worse?

Yes to getting a DAC/amp combination and not just a DAC on its own. If my laptop is anything to go by I can hear a background hiss with sensitive headphones and there is not enough oomph to drive less sensitive headphones.

No to the DAC burning in, but you may well experience chnages as your ears get used to the sound and the brain's EQ kicks in.

..