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post #57796 of 139868
Quote:
Originally Posted by graphidz View Post


LAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAWWWWLLLLL!!!!!!

It's true!! It needs to happen. Needs. To. Happen.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Accoun View Post


100x100px-LS-a1b87c3f_moe7avatar.png
Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
I can totally imagine her or someone else saying it with such face...

Just imagine me gender-bent, and making that face.
post #57797 of 139868
Quote:
Originally Posted by graphidz View Post

 

I think you got it wrong here. Boris isn't the kind that "all amps sound the same" but more like "can't hear the difference much" kind of people. Though that's from my understanding

What's the difference between the 2? confused.gif

post #57798 of 139868
post #57799 of 139868
Quote:
Originally Posted by b1o2r3i4s5 View Post

Think about it, Ruler flat FR and 0.00x% THD+N = no sound colorization.

Simple as that.

 

I'm sure you'd come to understand if you work in the electronics field (which I assume you don't)

 

I'm glad you have experience with it to some degree, because that is by far less offensive than people who simply parrot the same blogs and cite the same studies. No, I myself don't "work in the electronics field." However I know a lot of amp designers personally---both DIY and commercial---who I'm willing to bet have a lot more experience than you.

 

In terms of FR, the O2 is pretty linear sure. It's the B22 that is actually more colored. The O2 was designed to be cheap and powerful, and it succeeds in these areas. The O2 is trounced however in terms of low-level detail extraction and spacial reproduction. Both amps sound flat quite frankly, and I don't mean FR. The O2 much more so. 

 

I'm no subjectivist, by the way. Nor am I a strict objectivist. The division and feud going on currently is retarded. Subjectivists need to lean to stop mistaking their own preferences for actual performance, while objectivists need to learn that not everything can be reduced to a few parameters. Also while I don't have much experience directly in electrical engineering, I do have quite a bit of experience in experimental design, statistics, and psychometrics. Bias is a funny thing, as it works both ways: people can hear differences in expensive gear because they want to justify the expense. But people can also hear a lack of difference between gear because they want to validate their belief that there is none.


Edited by MuppetFace - 2/18/13 at 3:13am
post #57800 of 139868
Quote:
Originally Posted by b1o2r3i4s5 View Post

What's the difference between the 2? confused.gif

I think Graph is trying to say that although you can't hear any differences between the O2 and B22,  you'd be able to hear the difference between a cmoy and the B22, thus not all amps sound the same, you just couldn't hear any differences between these 2 specific amps.


On that note, I'm off to bed. Oyasumi miina!

post #57801 of 139868
Quote:
Originally Posted by b1o2r3i4s5 View Post

What's the difference between the 2? confused.gif

 

"All amps sound the same" means basically as the phrase implies. All amps just sound the same and spending much more on higher end models makes no difference whatsoever. Just like cables

 

"Cant hear the difference much" meaning that there is a difference, but not enough for my ears(or brain) to notice to make it differentiable

post #57802 of 139868

I just had a thought. Boris should get a +10 trader feedback

post #57803 of 139868
Quote:
Originally Posted by mechgamer123 View Post

What would you recommend for a good cheap and cheerful DIY tube amp that could drive my mad dog T50RPs?

 

Sorry, I really don't mean to sound bitchy this morning. Just imagine I'm laughing the whole time I'm saying all that above. 

 

Actually don't... that would be kind of psychotic.

 

The T50RPs don't need much power. There's sort of this myth that orthos require a ton of juice, but that's only a few specific orthos. I don't have much experience with cheap DIY tube builds, mostly DIY solid state (the O2 is a fine choice for them). Not sure if the Bottlehead stuff is considered cheap, but there's that? Some Cavalli and Pete Millett stuff is worth looking into too.

post #57804 of 139868
Ahh dammit I just remembered that mechy just went to bed. :\

Was about to ask him to include the pictures of completed P-H in all of it's complete glory in his post linked in his sig. (3x "in"s ftw)

Also for ****s and giggles, one of us P-H owners in USA should contact Tyll and have it measured and compared to the Obj2. I mean the thing isn't that hard to make in terms of components from what I can read, so anyone can do it if they wanted to.
Edited by jgray91 - 2/18/13 at 3:36am
post #57805 of 139868
Quote:
Originally Posted by MuppetFace View Post

I'm glad you have experience with it to some degree, because that is by far less offensive than people who simply parrot the same blogs and cite the same studies. No, I myself don't "work in the electronics field." However I know a lot of amp designers personally---both DIY and commercial---who I'm willing to bet have a lot more experience than you.

In terms of FR, the O2 is pretty linear sure. It's the B22 that is actually more colored. The O2 was designed to be cheap and powerful, and it succeeds in these areas. The O2 is trounced however in terms of low-level detail extraction and spacial reproduction. Both amps sound flat quite frankly, and I don't mean FR. The O2 much more so. 

I'm no subjectivist, by the way. Nor am I a strict objectivist. The division and feud going on currently is retarded. Subjectivists need to lean to stop mistaking their own preferences for actual performance, while objectivists need to learn that not everything can be reduced to a few parameters. Also while I don't have much experience directly in electrical engineering, I do have quite a bit of experience in experimental design, statistics, and psychometrics. Bias is a funny thing, as it works both ways: people can hear differences in expensive gear because they want to justify the expense. But people can also hear a lack of difference between gear because they want to validate their belief that there is none.

There is a simple objective measure of "low level detail retrieval" (or lack thereof). It's called distortion, and the Objective has very little of it.

Also I would guess that if the amp engineers you talked to spoke their minds, they would soon be out of a job as it becomes apparent that there's nothing for them to engineer anymore wink.gif
post #57806 of 139868
Quote:
Originally Posted by MuppetFace View Post

 

I'm glad you have experience with it to some degree, because that is by far less offensive than people who simply parrot the same blogs and cite the same studies. No, I myself don't "work in the electronics field." However I know a lot of amp designers personally---both DIY and commercial---who I'm willing to bet have a lot more experience than you.

 

In terms of FR, the O2 is pretty linear sure. It's the B22 that is actually more colored. The O2 was designed to be cheap and powerful, and it succeeds in these areas. The O2 is trounced however in terms of low-level detail extraction and spacial reproduction. Both amps sound flat quite frankly, and I don't mean FR. The O2 much more so. 

 

I'm no subjectivist, by the way. Nor am I a strict objectivist. The division and feud going on currently is retarded. Subjectivists need to lean to stop mistaking their own preferences for actual performance, while objectivists need to learn that not everything can be reduced to a few parameters. Also while I don't have much experience directly in electrical engineering, I do have quite a bit of experience in experimental design, statistics, and psychometrics. Bias is a funny thing, as it works both ways: people can hear differences in expensive gear because they want to justify the expense. But people can also hear a lack of difference between gear because they want to validate their belief that there is none.

It's exactly because of bias at work that "we" as audiophiles do NOT need very good amplifiers, we simply need to believe and we could hear anything we want.
I see no reason to spend more then $100 on any headphone amp because a single chip driving a headphone is "good enough",

I leave it to my brain to tune my sense of hearing so that a cheap, single chip amp will sound better than a multi-thousand dollar amp.

Furthermore, I can use an EQ and/or digital effects to tune my sound just the way I want, there's absolutely no reason to let amps / dacs do the tuning.

 

The same applies to headphones and earphones, My $10 Philips SHE3590 sounds much better then my $1300 UE11Pro simply because I used an EQ in conjunction with the power to believe.

 

But in the end, isn't this all about obtaining happiness and satisfaction in life?

You can do whatever you want, I have found mine through a $10 earbud and EQ.

 

PS:

I hope those amp designers you spoke to know what they're doing, just because they design amps does not by any means equal knowledgeable in electronics.

I speak from personal experience.

For the record, I started electronics at the age of 8, I'm now 17, that's 9 years of experience working with electronics.


Edited by akiroz - 2/18/13 at 3:56am
post #57807 of 139868
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Bloggs View Post


There is a simple objective measure of "low level detail retrieval" (or lack thereof). It's called distortion, and the Objective has very little of it.

Also I would guess that if the amp engineers you talked to spoke their minds, they would soon be out of a job as it becomes apparent that there's nothing for them to engineer anymore wink.gif

This.

I have actually given up engineering in the field of audio because there's nothing to engineer.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by jgray91 View Post

Also for ****s and giggles, one of us P-H owners in USA should contact Tyll and have it measured and compared to the Obj2. I mean the thing isn't that hard to make in terms of components from what I can read, so anyone can do it if they wanted to.

I suggest you don't, the DAC module is horrible.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by graphidz View Post

I just had a thought. Boris should get a +10 trader feedback

THAT would be pretty nice.

Quote:
Originally Posted by graphidz View Post

 

"All amps sound the same" means basically as the phrase implies. All amps just sound the same and spending much more on higher end models makes no difference whatsoever. Just like cables

 

"Cant hear the difference much" meaning that there is a difference, but not enough for my ears(or brain) to notice to make it differentiable

Oh ok, Ill be "Cant hear the difference much" then. :D

post #57808 of 139868
Quote:
Originally Posted by jgray91 View Post

Ahh dammit I just remembered that mechy just went to bed. :\

Was about to ask him to include the pictures of completed P-H in all of it's complete glory in his post linked in his sig. (3x "in"s ftw)

Also for ****s and giggles, one of us P-H owners in USA should contact Tyll and have it measured and compared to the Obj2. I mean the thing isn't that hard to make in terms of components from what I can read, so anyone can do it if they wanted to.

 

But then again, the P-H is a AMP/DAC combo.

post #57809 of 139868
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Bloggs View Post


There is a simple objective measure of "low level detail retrieval" (or lack thereof). It's called distortion, and the Objective has very little of it.

Also I would guess that if the amp engineers you talked to spoke their minds, they would soon be out of a job as it becomes apparent that there's nothing for them to engineer anymore wink.gif

 

/facepalm

post #57810 of 139868
Quote:
Originally Posted by MuppetFace View Post

 

/facepalm


To be completely honest, I find it contradictory how you acknowledge bias at work and yet thinks the difference between amplifiers is significant.

It's beyond me. confused.gif

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