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The Wizard Appreciation Thread - Long Live the Wizard - The former HA Appreciation Thread - Page 466  

post #6976 of 7980
Quote:
Originally Posted by DMinor View Post

Interesting the reviewer mentioned the 4A sounds better than 4Ai. I am wondering if this is a technical improvement from design or simply improvement from better seal provided by custom.

Probably placebo.

post #6977 of 7980
Quote:
Originally Posted by project86 View Post

 

Thanks! I was shocked at how we tended to agree on our preferences. I thought for sure there would be a lot of back and forth required, ended in an unsatisfying compromise. Turns out it was pretty easy to choose the favorites. JH13 was universally appreciated for its abilities, but if you read it in depth you'll see how some of us preferred others based on sound signature. The ES5, the Miracle, and the 8.A all have their moments were I'd rather have them than the JH13.

 

 

 

Believe me, I would never have guessed. As I said, the original JH13 was not my favorite. I still don't know what the reasoning is behind the FreqPhase but it sure sounds good. 

 

 

As I keep saying, I had no expectations whatsoever regarding this new model. Several of the other writers there are rather picky when it comes to this stuff, and would love nothing more than to blast a new product as hype rather than substance. We just didn't get the chance in this case. But I can totally understand why you went with the 8.A over the JH13, as the 8.A is a seriously great IEM too. 

 

 

I think it's a combination of things. I posted about the 4.Ai in the "Heir World Tour" thread, if you want to find that and read more. 

The fact that one is already aware of the 'revolutionary freqphase' already means that one is under the influence of expectation bias. I just read up on the freqphase on JH's website. Dubious at best. If the only difference between the product and competitor was the phase plot, they'd sound identical to each other. He shows a phase plot difference and not the relevant group delay with a wrong description on top of that. Data can always be accurate, but presented to some advantage or other. I just love audio manufacturers that adopt terminology from outside their industry (time/phase waveguide? Really?) because the terms sound so good!

 

 

Edited by uchihaitachi - 5/6/13 at 9:58am
post #6978 of 7980
Quote:
Originally Posted by uchihaitachi View Post

The fact that you were aware it is 'freqphase' already means that you are under the influence of expectation bias. I just read up on the freqphase on JH's website. Dubious at best. If the only difference between the product and competitor was the phase plot, they'd sound identical to each other. He shows a phase plot difference and not the relevant group delay with a wrong description on top of that. 

 

I dont know... project86 is most well known for his honest and objective reviews. I wouldn't write off that there is no difference. If that were the case, many of those "pro" reviewers were also affected by the placebo effect, and to me that is simply impossible. 


Edited by Greed - 5/6/13 at 9:51am
post #6979 of 7980
Quote:
Originally Posted by uchihaitachi View Post

Probably placebo.

 

 

      There is no doubt that sonically there would be a difference as the laws of physics would dictate that....   but does the difference always = better sound?

Dr. John Moulton

Here at Noble, we craft some of the finest universal and custom in-ear monitors available today. 

post #6980 of 7980
Quote:
Originally Posted by Greed View Post

 

I dont know... project86 is most well known for his honest and objective reviews. I wouldn't write off that there is no difference. If that were the case, many of those "pro" reviewers were also affected by the placebo effect, and to me that is simply impossible. 

In audio, golden ears do not exist. Everybody is subject to expectation bias. The only 'objective' method of judging is through blind testing. I am a classical pianist who has also been trained as a piano tuner but I can never objectively judge a piano when the brand and make is revealed to me beforehand. Steinway or Faziolis always win the day when I am presented with visual information.... If not Yamahas do fantastically!


Edited by uchihaitachi - 5/6/13 at 9:58am
post #6981 of 7980
Then just buy a Yamaha.with a Steinway label on it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by uchihaitachi View Post

In audio, golden ears do not exist. Everybody is subject to expectation bias. The only 'objective' method of judging is through blind testing. I am a classical pianist who has also been trained as a piano tuner but I can never objectively judge a piano when the brand and make is revealed to me beforehand. Steinway or Faziolis always win the day when I am presented with visual information.... If not Yamahas do fantastically!
post #6982 of 7980
Quote:
Originally Posted by uchihaitachi View Post

In audio, golden ears do not exist. Everybody is subject to expectation bias. The only 'objective' method of judging is through blind testing. I am a classical pianist who has also been trained as a piano tuner but I can never objectively judge a piano when the brand and make is revealed to me beforehand. Steinway or Faziolis always win the day when I am presented with visual information.... If not Yamahas do fantastically!

 

I'm not saying they are not subject to bias. What I'm saying is, there has to be a difference if 5+ experienced reviewers hear a difference. It is easy to be bias, I understand that, but these reviewers have no reason to be such. They don't receive money or any sort of compensation for their service. But, I guess at the end of the day you either choose to believe them or you don't. 

post #6983 of 7980
Quote:
Originally Posted by uchihaitachi View Post

Probably placebo.

 

Nope. I had both on hand for leisurely A/B comparisons and had no expectations either way. If anything, I was hoping the universal would be identical. Would certainly save people some money. If you look in the Heir World Tour thread you can see the impressions are similar across the board, at least for the several people who own both models. 

 

I'd say if nothing else the fit is enough to explain the differences. The 4.A inserts far deeper into my canal than even the deepest fit I could muster with the universal version.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by uchihaitachi View Post

The fact that you were aware it is 'freqphase' already means that you are under the influence of expectation bias. I just read up on the freqphase on JH's website. Dubious at best. If the only difference between the product and competitor was the phase plot, they'd sound identical to each other. He shows a phase plot difference and not the relevant group delay with a wrong description on top of that. 

 

I think there's more to it than simply the phase thing. It might not even be the same drivers if I recall correctly. I too am disappointed with the "explanation" provided for what FreqPhase really is. And I made that clear in the IF article. But the product sounds good regardless, even if it's really just a new model altogether. 

post #6984 of 7980
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mimouille View Post

Then just buy a Yamaha.with a Steinway label on it.

lol

post #6985 of 7980
Quote:
Originally Posted by project86 View Post

 

Nope. I had both on hand for leisurely A/B comparisons and had no expectations either way. If anything, I was hoping the universal would be identical. Would certainly save people some money. If you look in the Heir World Tour thread you can see the impressions are similar across the board, at least for the several people who own both models. 

 

I'd say if nothing else the fit is enough to explain the differences. The 4.A inserts far deeper into my canal than even the deepest fit I could muster with the universal version.

 

 

I think there's more to it than simply the phase thing. It might not even be the same drivers if I recall correctly. I too am disappointed with the "explanation" provided for what FreqPhase really is. And I made that clear in the IF article. But the product sounds good regardless, even if it's really just a new model altogether. 

I think it's just been newly tuned....angry_face.gif

post #6986 of 7980
Quote:
Originally Posted by uchihaitachi View Post

I think it's just been newly tuned....angry_face.gif

 

Wouldn't that mean you agree there is a change in SQ? That you recognize, regardless of how, that the two IEMs sound different?

post #6987 of 7980

When I demo'd them, as I wrote earlier, I wasn't told that they were different models. The IEM salesman is a good friend in Seoul and he likes to play random tricks. I really could not tell the difference. After I was told, then I started hearing a difference in imaging etc. Another explanation is that as I tried the universal demo versions, I guess they could potentially be significantly different to how customs would sound.

 

But I doubt the difference would be night/day as most reviewers seem to indicate. But my bigger concern is having read up on the freqphase technology, as project86 says, it is rather dubious as all they provide is an irrelevant graph (and the amount of phase shift indicated in the graph will result in no sonic difference). So, I am saying, if there is indeed such a big difference between the older and newer model, I believe it would be down to a newly tuned acoustic network rather than some new revolutionary technology and this irritates me as it is very dishonest. 

 

Also, Dr Moulton, will there ever be custom Tzar350?


Edited by uchihaitachi - 5/6/13 at 10:36am
post #6988 of 7980

is there any post that shows how to clean the iems internally? How often should one do it on average?
 

post #6989 of 7980

Wizard can clean up the guessing on the technical design difference - if any - between the 4A and 4Ai. If none, then the difference is from seal, period.

post #6990 of 7980
Quote:
Originally Posted by DMinor View Post

Wizard can clean up the guessing on the technical design difference - if any - between the 4A and 4Ai. If none, then the difference is from seal, period.

 

There are physical differences between the 4.A and 4.Ai.  You can't just assume it's either the driver differences or seal.  The length of a nozzle can make a big difference in the final output sound. 

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