MV40s for computer speakers? (Promedia 2.1 and Z2300 discussed) - Page 2

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRG1990 
People are subject to placebo , bias etc, test equipment is not and it's 10,0000 times more accurate.

Op-amps don't sound different unless they misused they have many requirements in a circuit which you completly ignore when hot-swapping them and testing with your ear stability is critical for proper op amp operation, unless you know the requirements of the op-amp and properties of the circuit your placing it in your likely using the wrong op-amp for the job and wasting time and money degrading the sound quality rather than improving it then mistaking this degradition of sound like an increase in disortion,oscillation,ultrasonic artifacts or some other unwanted effect for an increase in detail or something else stupid.

An op-amp is not a eq far from it infact, in audio there normally used as buffers, or some for small voltage gain. You've just proved everything you think about op-amps is completly wrong yet you still suggest everyone goes about hot swapping them like there some sort of eq or magic sound enhancer.

I just believe that op-amps designed 1 year ago are better then op-amps designed 7 years ago.

I also believe that sound card manufacturers pick parts by the lowest price, not for sound quality.

Must be nice knowing your smarter then 100s of other people and not subject to Placebo and Bias, unlike others.

Have you gone to "The Op-Amp Thread" and told everyone there they are wasting their time?
 

Quote:

Originally Posted by PurpleAngel 

I just believe that op-amps designed 1 year ago are better then op-amps designed 7 years ago.

I also believe that sound card manufacturers pick parts by the lowest price, not for sound quality.

Must be nice knowing your smarter then 100s of other people and not subject to Placebo and Bias, unlike others.

Have you gone to "The Op-Amp Thread" and told everyone there they are wasting their time?

The difference in price between op-amps in very small, and even smaller for large manufacturers buying in bulk, the manufactures know there circuits properties and have propering measuring and testing equipment, they just pick the op-amp thats most suitable for there circuit or design the circuit around the cheap op-amp.

I'm not smarter than anyone i'm just not easily mislead I  take the time to read and learn anyone can use google theres plenty of real world info on op-amps from proper eletronics engineers and people who know what they talking about, theres also plenty of measurements and real world facts and objective data to read up on.

There's no point in going to "The Op-Amp Thread" and telling everyone there they are wasting their time , it would be like going into a church with evidence and facts and pointing out god doesn't exist trying to change strong subjective views is pointless, it would only upset everyone and cause trouble plus I really don't care it's your money and time your wasting and your sound quality your degrading, but it's not right when you jump in the thread of a newbie who only wants suggestions on speakers and suggests he starts messing around op-amps giving your completly wrong subject views as to why, encouraging him to waste his time and money doing nothing more than degrading his sound making him much worse off than before he got here.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRG1990 

The difference in price between op-amps in very small, and even smaller for large manufacturers buying in bulk, the manufactures know there circuits properties and have propering measuring and testing equipment, they just pick the op-amp thats most suitable for there circuit or design the circuit around the cheap op-amp.

I'm not smarter than anyone i'm just not easily mislead I  take the time to read and learn anyone can use google theres plenty of real world info on op-amps from proper eletronics engineers and people who know what they talking about, theres also plenty of measurements and real world facts and objective data to read up on.

There's no point in going to "The Op-Amp Thread" and telling everyone there they are wasting their time , it would be like going into a church with evidence and facts and pointing out god doesn't exist trying to change strong subjective views is pointless, it would only upset everyone and cause trouble plus I really don't care it's your money and time your wasting and your sound quality your degrading, but it's not right when you jump in the thread of a newbie who only wants suggestions on speakers and suggests he starts messing around op-amps giving your completly wrong subject views as to why, encouraging him to waste his time and money doing nothing more than degrading his sound making him much worse off than before he got here.

Wasting his money, my idea costs him $60.

Your ideas costs him $160
 

It helps to read the first post in thread, which is asking what speakers and sub are avaible thats better than the promedias for $150, my suggestion addresses the question of the OP and offers a real improvement in sound quality because I'm suggestioning speakers.

Your suggesting a new sound card which is fair enough but theres minimal difference between them it's solid state eletronics in 2011, unless his oringal soundcard is dreadfully bad with audiable noise , disortion or jitter theres very little or nothing to gain in upgrading. But then you suggest he spends money and time possibly degrading the performance of the new soundcard because in your subjective option that you can put any old op-amp in any old circuit and using your ears as a measuring tool detect an improvement in sound, which goes against years of well understood eletronic engineering , circuit design and the different properties and requirements of various op-amps.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRG1990 
It helps to read the first post in thread, which is asking what speakers and sub are avaible thats better than the promedias for $150, my suggestion addresses the question of the OP and offers a real improvement in sound quality because I'm suggestioning speakers.

Your suggesting a new sound card which is fair enough but theres minimal difference between them it's solid state eletronics in 2011, unless his oringal soundcard is dreadfully bad with audiable noise , disortion or jitter theres very little or nothing to gain in upgrading. But then you suggest he spends money and time possibly degrading the performance of the new soundcard because in your subjective option that you can put any old op-amp in any old circuit and using your ears as a measuring tool detect an improvement in sound, which goes against years of well understood eletronic engineering , circuit design and the different properties and requirements of various op-amps.

I did not pick any old op-amp, The LME49860NA is the exact same op-amp Asus puts in their sound cards at the factory.

The LME49860NA is just the cherry pick (better voltage range) of the chips.

The op-amp in the Asus cards just go by the old model number.

Before you start criticizing my opinion, should you not get your facts straight first.

The asus xonar ds uses the NE5532D op amp , you suggest the LME49860NA which you claim is exactly the same apart from the voltage range? the datasheets say differently.

Lets say you were right and the only difference was the voltage range then where are the audiable differences coming from placebo most likely.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRG1990 

The asus xonar ds uses the NE5532D op amp , you suggest the LME49860NA which you claim is exactly the same apart from the voltage range? the datasheets say differently.

Lets say you were right and the only difference was the voltage range then where are the audiable differences coming from placebo most likely.

I said the LME49860NA is the exact same op-amp Asus puts in their sound cards at the factory, I did not say the DS model.

I wanted to see if you bother to pay attention to details, before mouthing off, to criticizing others.

The LME49860NA (originally sold as the LM4652) could have gone through several revisions to fix problems that limited it,

Op-amps built in 2009 (LME49860NA) could have 4 or 5 times more transistors then the ones in the Creative X-fi card from 2005.

The Ds model was the 1 you mentioned earlier in the thread that you recomended swapping the stock NE5532D for the LME49860NA, So if asus puts the LME49860NA in their soundcards at the factory theres nothing wrong with that the earlier was likely the op-amp that best suited them circuits and gave the best performance and measured the best in them circuits I have nothing against the LME49860NA or any op-amps just people who miss use them.

You can't just swap op-amps around and rely on your ears or other peoples subjective opinions, each op-amp is optimized for different things input bias values, configurations, gains, feedback circuits, load impedances, quiescent currents, speeds/bandwidths, compensation values, operating voltages , unity gain , common mode rejection ratio , power supply rejection ratio etc . You need to perform measurements of the circuit to select the most suitable amp based on these and more properties. The manufacture performs these measurements and they know there circuit the best because they designed and made it, they don't simply stick in any old op-amp because it's cheap.

So who do you think knows which op-amp is best for a circuit? , the eletronics engineer with his knowledge, professional measuring and testing equipment or you with your ears and placebo?.

Yea they should be you generally get better value for money buying pre-owned, I don't know how old them speakers are but sometimes with vintage speakers the surrounds corrode and need replacing so you should check the condition of the speakers before buying.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JustJohn 

Decided to do some craigslist searching. Found KEF 55 and Polk Model 4 monitor series both asking $50. Pretty clueless about the speaker world. Can anyone tell me if either of those would be significantly better than the two sets mentioned earlier in the thread?

If that's the KEH C55, probably not worth it.  The Q55 floorstander?  I'd probably get those myself...

The Polk Monitor 4?  Well, let's say that my dad owns the bigger Monitor 5 and I don't like it at all.  It's muddy, has a very uneven lower midrange response, and very poor bass extension and response.  The Monitor 7, which both he and I own, is much, much better.

But it can't hurt to give them a listen.

I do have a pair of Klipsch Synergy B-2 bookshelf speakers - simply astounding bass response for a bookshelf speaker.  No subwoofer required, really, except if loud, deep bass is a priority. As a bookshelf system I don't ever miss one, but as an only system I might.  They're readily found for $100 or so used online - quite a good deal if you ask me.

Unfortunately, the used bookshelf speaker market is not so full of great values.  They're easy to ship compared to floorstanding speakers, so the good ones are highly inflated in value.  There's lots of mediocre bookshelf speakers out there, and it can be hard to get through the mud to something actually good (or at least something you like) at a reasonable price.  The Klipsch B-2 (and probably B-3, for that matter), are such a speaker, for now, anyway, if you can find them on eBay or CL. 

On a budget, another option to go with that Lepai amp mentioned earlier (which would go great with the efficient B-2 as well) is the Dayton B652.  I had a pair that I left in Sweden - they're not quite up to the level of the B-2, but incredible all their own.  And for $30!  At that price it's worth trying them for the heck of it.  Sometimes they go on sale for $25, and right now you can even get them bundled with the Dayton DTA-1 T-amp (very similar to the Lepai, but with battery power as an option) for $58.  I had that combo.  The amp is on the weaker side and does better with more efficient speakers if you are trying to fill a room with sound, but for near-field use it's plenty.

Note that if you get a sub and integrate it with speakers, if you're running the line-level input/output through the sub and to the amplifier, you'll need to control the volume from before the subwoofer, not with the amplifier after it.  That means with a pre-amp/DAC/sound card or your computer.  With any decent bookshelf speakers I would consider running without a subwoofer at first, and would get a subwoofer then depending on the setup and what you want.  The Dayton combo, for example, is pretty good and will match well and leave you a decent budget to get a comparable Dayton subwoofer (the Dayton 8"/10"/12" or something else).  The Klipsch B-2 plus the Lepai or Dayton amps is going to about exhaust your budget, but like I said it doesn't necessarily need a subwoofer (well, neither do the Dayton B652, but I'm guessing you would really want one).  The B-2 will also likely scale up much better in a system; that is, it will do well with a much better subwoofer than the Daytons, and will crossover nicely at a low frequency.

Speaking of the subwoofer/speaker crossover - the reason it is so high on multimedia systems is because the mini-satellite speakers just aren't big enough to extend down all the way to 80-100 Hz.  You're looking at 200-300 Hz at best with most.  That won't be so much of a problem with real bookshelf speakers.  Also, note that your subwoofer is going to have that low-pass/high-pass crossover and you won't do anything with the speakers regarding that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRG1990 

Yea they should be you generally get better value for money buying pre-owned, I don't know how old them speakers are but sometimes with vintage speakers the surrounds corrode and need replacing so you should check the condition of the speakers before buying.

Those Polks use rubber surrounds so there is no worry.  Can't say about the KEH.  Of course, it is always good to check the condition of the speakers before buying.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JustJohn 

Wow, lots of info, thanks. Read it through a couple times.

 

Now I really like the idea of snagging a pair of the Klipsch and being able to use them as part of a pretty decent setup later on. However, I don't see them for anywhere near $100, which kind of puts them out of reach.

 

That puts me back looking at the Daytons and a sub again, but I'm still a little worried I'll be disappointed with them in comparison to the Klipsch promedia satellites which I'm quite impressed with.

 

I also found a set of Proton AL-200A, guy is asking $75. I heard those were supposed to be good but have no idea if that is a good price. Anyone have an idea about those?

I have no idea about the Protons, but if you have a little patience the Klipsch B-2 pops up on eBay for $100-$125 pretty regularly (the B-3 a bit higher).  Not too long ago you could get the B-2 for $100 or so from Amazon used, but it seems like that is no more.

Another thing to think about is if you look at the Dayton combo, if you're not satisfied with the speakers you can always upgrade - and like I mentioned, the little DTA-1 will do well with more efficient speakers.