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Shure SRH1840 and SRH1440 Unveiled! - Page 121

post #1801 of 2023
Quote:
Originally Posted by ultrabike View Post

 

I understand. I did give the HD650 as much attention as I could. But yes, long term impressions tend to be more accurate.

 

 

Yes,

 

I think you have to really live with them, use them different days different amps if possible.  No fast A/B I'm talking hours at a time.  Now that would only mean you will get to know that one pair of 650s and really never get to have your experience of two different 650s that sounds different.  Unless you have friends over and they bring there's.

 

I only know the 650s I have and the 1840s I have.  I've lived with them for some time now.  I fell I know them personally.  I know what amps they like to sleep with and I know what amps they can't stand.  I feel I can give an accurate account of these that I have.

 

Also, sorry I don't do graphs.

post #1802 of 2023
Quote:
Originally Posted by preproman View Post

 

 

Yes,

 

I think you have to really live with them, use them different days different amps if possible.  No fast A/B I'm talking hours at a time.  Now that would only mean you will get to know that one pair of 650s and really never get to have your experience of two different 650s that sounds different.  Unless you have friends over and they bring there's.

 

I only know the 650s I have and the 1840s I have.  I've lived with them for some time now.  I fell I know them personally.  I know what amps they like to sleep with and I know what amps they can't stand.  I feel I can give an accurate account of these that I have.

 

Also, sorry I don't do graphs.

 

My HD558 are amp tramps, they will sleep with the first one they see. I keep telling them to keep themselves for that special amp, but they just don't heed my words.

 

As far as meet and short term impressions, I think that it is possible to like an HP and once the honeymoon ends, hate it. In cases where the honeymoon lasted less than a few minutes, long term relationships are improbable... but could happen I guess. I honestly didn't see it between me and the 1840.

 

What did you use to pair your HD650 and your 1840 btw?

post #1803 of 2023

Both sound good out the βeta-22

 

650s sound best out of the BHA-1 and GS-1 (both sold) (waiting on the GS-X)

 

1840s sound best out of the M^3

 

 

"Amp Tramps"   

 

post #1804 of 2023
Quote:
Originally Posted by preproman View Post

 

 

Yes,

 

I think you have to really live with them, use them different days different amps if possible.  

 

Also, sorry I don't do graphs.

 

x2. Listen with your OWN ears. They don't hear the same as other people's ears so there will always be differences in opinions. It's worth noting that everyone is right about their own opinions of a product. Not sure why people can't get that this is all subjective.

 

With that said, the tone of the HD650 sort of gives the illusion that the 1840s have more detail when in fact, if you actually listen to the HD650s closely and properly mated with the right source/amp combination, it indeed sorts out the details even more so. 

post #1805 of 2023
Quote:
Originally Posted by twizzleraddict View Post

 

x2. Listen with your OWN ears. They don't hear the same as other people's ears so there will always be differences in opinions. It's worth noting that everyone is right about their own opinions of a product. Not sure why people can't get that this is all subjective.

 

With that said, the tone of the HD650 sort of gives the illusion that the 1840s have more detail when in fact, if you actually listen to the HD650s closely and properly mated with the right source/amp combination, it indeed sorts out the details even more so. 

 

If I can chime in on this conversation for a little bit...

 

The problem with ears is that they are proprietary to each individual. Second problem is, most people listen to sound but not necessarily performance. The first falls under subjective stuff, each can be happy with what they like, but the second can most certainly be confirmed by measurements. Discussion here is boring without there being absolutes. I hate overly subjective and especially relativistic comments like "to each his own" or "your ears know best". Those are the truth if we're only speaking of sound-preferences (everyone can enjoy crappy headphones, but they must acknowledge it instead of hailing them as a cure for cancer due to their own subjective experience of enjoyment with them), but certainly not when speaking of performance, unless we dive into the very small details and balancing priorities. I've always held the K701 series in high regard, without even owning them, yet so many hate them. In discerning musical information they are great and hard to beat at that price point, but still there are so many haters. These people obviously either look for a particular sound, an ideal or physical gratification. I've held this opinion for a long time, and now that I've seen not only FR but CSD-measurements of them, they have established my views of the headphones even further. 

 

"Also, sorry I don't do graphs."

 

I believe this can be only said once one has understood the premises and parameters of graphs and the correlation between them and one's own listening impressions. I understand the criticism of expectation bias: it works both ways. Surely graphs have an effect on your impressions just as much as cost, looks etc. ... But yes, they have a meaning and one should seek to learn about them. 

But I like graphs myself. Given the amount of BS (in regards to what's truly objective) that people spew here, it's good to have an alternate guideline. They have nothing to do with music directly, which to me is an absolute value, but are interesting to learn. I'm sure all of us are reductive materialists in the sense that everything regarding audio can be explained by physics, given the required amount of knowledge is met. Not sure headphones are yet fully "discovered". 

 

 

Having said all that, I do believe my own ears foremost, but can also be tricked by them or even get used to something I initially found terrible and vice versa. 

 

Did I say I haven't heard either of these headphones yet? tongue_smile.gif


Edited by electropop - 9/29/12 at 10:40am
post #1806 of 2023
Quote:
Originally Posted by twizzleraddict View Post

 

x2. Listen with your OWN ears. They don't hear the same as other people's ears so there will always be differences in opinions. It's worth noting that everyone is right about their own opinions of a product. 1) Not sure why people can't get that this is all subjective.

 

With that said, the tone of the HD650 sort of gives the illusion that the 1840s have more detail when in fact, 2) if you actually listen to the HD650s closely and properly mated with the right source/amp combination, it indeed sorts out the details even more so.

 

1) Yes, but that doesn't mean everyone is always right about everything they think/say. I agree that people hear differently and there will be differences in opinion, but lets not use that as an excuse to justify anything we want.

Detail can't be measured but it can be heard. The HD800 has more detail than the SRH940, but I've heard people argue that. Doesn't mean they're right. (The Senns scale way higher, whereas the 940 hit a wall with a certain level of equipment). To give a better example, I've met people who think the PX-100 are just as detailed as the HD650. Incorrect, but they believe it.

 

2) Have had two sets of HD650s (recabled and stock) in the house for the past 2-3 years. At one point there were 4 pairs with me (for various users). Have tried countless systems and cables. Comparing them side by side to the 1840 on an almost-daily basis, it's easy to hear the Shures have better top end air and detail, with imaging that's closer to the HD800s than it is to the HD650s. Yes, the bass of the HD650s is more plentiful and full-sounding, with better, more realistic decay, but microdetail in the upper mids and especially the highs isn't quite up to par with the newer higher-end cans of today. The 650s can't reproduce the sense of space or accuracy that the 1840s can either. There's just more info in the latter. These differences aren't earth-shattering, but they're there. (As I indiciated earlier, I'll concede that in terms of low-end performance, the HD650s take the cake in several areas IMO).

 

As an aside, I feel it's unfair to compare these headphones off low-end gear to make these judgements (not pointing fingers, just saying in general). How will we know which one scales higher? One can keep getting more detailed while the other plateaus.

 

To address another concern that was brought up. All of the HD650s I had sounded absolutely identical. My friend's current pair also sound the same as the 2 we have. They all have the new silver drivers.

A number of years ago, it was common knowledge that there was a black-silk driver HD650, which was significantly darker. These were all replaced years ago with the new silver ones in circulation now. The graphs presented are very likely comparing black to silver. No surprises there.

post #1807 of 2023
Quote:
Originally Posted by electropop View Post

 

If I can chime in on this conversation for a little bit...

 

 

Good post. You said it better than I could.

post #1808 of 2023
Quote:

Originally Posted by electropop View Post

 

"Also, sorry I don't do graphs."

 

I believe this can be only said once one has understood the premises and parameters of graphs and the correlation between them and one's own listening impressions. I understand the criticism of expectation bias: it works both ways. Surely graphs have an effect on your impressions just as much as cost, looks etc. ...

 

should seek to learn about them. 

 

 

 

Wait a sec.

 

Why do you think it can be only said once one has understood the premises and parameters of graphs?

 

Like you said - the graphs do not reflect at all on my music of choice.  So yes I can say with out a doubt "I don't do graphs".  So why should I seek to learn about them.  

 

Listing impressions is what I prefer not graph impressions.

 

Sorry but I don't think we share the same view on graphs.

post #1809 of 2023
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shahrose View Post

2) Have had two sets of HD650s (recabled and stock) in the house for the past 2-3 years. At one point there were 4 pairs with me (for various users). Have tried countless systems and cables. Comparing them side by side to the 1840 on an almost-daily basis, it's easy to hear the Shures have better top end air and detail, with imaging that's closer to the HD800s than it is to the HD650s. Yes, the bass of the HD650s is more plentiful and full-sounding, with better, more realistic decay, but microdetail in the upper mids and especially the highs isn't quite up to par with the newer higher-end cans of today. The 650s can't reproduce the sense of space or accuracy that the 1840s can either. There's just more info in the latter. These differences aren't earth-shattering, but they're there. (As I indiciated earlier, I'll concede that in terms of low-end performance, the HD650s take the cake in several areas IMO).

 

Interesting. In my observations, I took my pair of HD650s, compared to HD800s & T1s (which I both had for a month so exposed and familiar with the characteristic nature of it) and, although the HD800s were much revealing in details and clarity, I felt the HD650s had the same measure of details. The HD800s had so much "more" of it that it was readily apparent which were the more revealing set of cans. This is not to the HD650s were missing these details, they just had it at a more muted level (hence the "veil" reference that's so commonly applied to these). With this in mind, comparing to the 1840s, there were things I heard in the same tracks comparing the HD650s/HD800s that I couldn't make out in the 1840s so I know there are limitations with the Shures. 

 

I was just listening to the 1840s with some older Buddha Bar discs last night and boy did they sound enveloping and engrossing... Those limitations I noted are forgotten, lost in the music so to speak. biggrin.gif

 

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by preproman View Post

Like you said - the graphs do not reflect at all on my music of choice.  So yes I can say with out a doubt "I don't do graphs".  So why should I seek to learn about them.  

I also look at the graphs but they don't tell the entire story for me. Listening is a subjective thing for me and there are gear that I've heard which measure horribly but I absolutely love. (Tube gear with some old Spendors come to mind. eek.gif) Shoot me!


Edited by twizzleraddict - 9/29/12 at 10:03am
post #1810 of 2023
Quote:
Originally Posted by preproman View Post

 

 

Wait a sec.

 

Why do you think it can be only said once one has understood the premises and parameters of graphs?

 

Like you said - the graphs do not reflect at all on my music of choice.  So yes I can say with out a doubt "I don't do graphs".  So why should I seek to learn about them.  

 

Listing impressions is what I prefer not graph impressions.

 

Sorry but I don't think we share the same view on graphs.

 

Obviously not. 

 

"I hate a culture from country X but refuse to learn about them" is the social equivalent of such a way of thinking. "They do not improve my quality of life at all, so why should I give two flying poops about immigrants?" ... Maybe a bit crude, but in politics right wingers love to be ignorant to their own benefit. I hope you understand my point. 

 

Would you say arguments are won by not understanding the other party's point of view? To have a meaningful opinion, one should consider everything on the table. You seemed defensive with your comment, but you really shouldn't be. I'm not saying this personally, since I haven't read into your listening impressions that thoroughly.

 

Would you say that all of people's listening impressions speak much louder than any graph, when speaking in absolutes? "I think the bass from the PRO900 is so natural when listening to Tiestö!" ... How many inconsistencies do you see in that sentence? 

 

Of course measurements don't tell everything, that goes without saying. One cannot fully comprehend everything and draw pin point conclusions from graphs alone. Were it with FR, harmonic distortion in different orders and waterfall graphs combined. But if you understand those elements and correlate them with your listening impressions, you learn to use them as a very trustworthy guideline to satisfy your OWN subjective needs for enjoyment. Much more trustworthy than opinions from people freaking out over their system's interconnects. 

"Harmonic distortion in mah bass!?!?!? But imma lovin this bass!" ... So be it! My point is not to take away from anyone's musical enjoyment, rather just filter away the BS (yes, a personal opinion here as everywhere might consist of a healthy dose of manure) and have people acknowledge what they're actually hearing. Again, not saying your listening impressions are worthless, probably on the contrary with all your equipment and experience. 

 

One thing I haven't been able to correlate with graphs fully is what I see as "musicality", which is the ability to distinguish differences in pitch. Headphones with relatively high THD in bass can do this plenty good, yet some ideally measuring and less ideally paired systems might play one note samba. Bass can be seemingly tight and fast, but I cannot comprehend what the musician is trying to tell me... triportsad.gif To tackle that, a very nicely measuring headphone, which is the HD800, when well set up does everything phenomenally good. 

 

Sorry to be so blunt, but I think you were just so wrong with your statements! tongue_smile.gif

 

I enjoy counter-criticism, so any would be appreciated. Just don't push this debate over ban-worthy boundaries, if I haven't already.. wink.gif

post #1811 of 2023
Quote:
Originally Posted by twizzleraddict View Post

 

Interesting. In my observations, I took my pair of HD650s, compared to HD800s & T1s (which I both had for a month so exposed and familiar with the characteristic nature of it) and, although the HD800s were much revealing in details and clarity, I felt the HD650s had the same measure of details. The HD800s had so much "more" of it that it was readily apparent which were the more revealing set of cans. This is not to the HD650s were missing these details, they just had it at a more muted level (hence the "veil" reference that's so commonly applied to these). With this in mind, comparing to the 1840s, there were things I heard in the same tracks comparing the HD650s/HD800s that I couldn't make out in the 1840s so I know there are limitations with the Shures. 

 

I was just listening to the 1840s with some older Buddha Bar discs last night and boy did they sound enveloping and engrossing... Those limitations I noted are forgotten, lost in the music so to speak. biggrin.gif

 

 

There's a difference between macro and micro-detail. If you take a Grado SR60 or Koss KSC75, you'll hear most of what the HD800s present. It's the microdetail, the air, the ambience, the information around instruments, vocalists etc. that set them apart. I'm talking about microdetail here, as most do when comparing the subtleties among high-end headphones. It takes careful listening and a revealing setup of the same calibre as the transducer. Though, I have to be honest, I'm surprised you didn't hear a difference right away between the HD800s and HD650s. The ancillaries must have been lacking or the environment non-ideal...I can only guess. The gap in detail and overall SQ is immediately obvious to me.

post #1812 of 2023
Quote:
Originally Posted by electropop View Post

 

Obviously not. 

 

"I hate a culture from country X but refuse to learn about them" is the social equivalent of such a way of thinking. "They do not improve my quality of life at all, so why should I give two flying poops about immigrants?" ... Maybe a bit crude, but in politics right wingers love to be ignorant to their own benefit. I hope you understand my point. 

 

Would you say arguments are won by not understanding the other party's point of view? To have a meaningful opinion, one should consider everything on the table. You seemed defensive with your comment, but you really shouldn't be. I'm not saying this personally, since I haven't read into your listening impressions that thoroughly.

 

Would you say that all of people's listening impressions speak much louder than any graph, when speaking in absolutes? "I think the bass from the PRO900 is so natural when listening to Tiestö!" ... How many inconsistencies do you see in that sentence? 

 

Of course measurements don't tell everything, that goes without saying. One cannot fully comprehend everything and draw pin point conclusions from graphs alone. Were it with FR, harmonic distortion in different orders and waterfall graphs combined. But if you understand those elements and correlate them with your listening impressions, you learn to use them as a very trustworthy guideline to satisfy your OWN subjective needs for enjoyment. Much more trustworthy than opinions from people freaking out over their system's interconnects. 

"Harmonic distortion in mah bass!?!?!? But imma lovin this bass!" ... So be it! My point is not to take away from anyone's musical enjoyment, rather just filter away the BS (yes, a personal opinion here as everywhere might consist of a healthy dose of manure) and have people acknowledge what they're actually hearing. Again, not saying your listening impressions are worthless, probably on the contrary with all your equipment and experience. 

 

One thing I haven't been able to correlate with graphs fully is what I see as "musicality", which is the ability to distinguish differences in pitch. Headphones with relatively high THD in bass can do this plenty good, yet some ideally measuring and less ideally paired systems might play one note samba. Bass can be seemingly tight and fast, but I cannot comprehend what the musician is trying to tell me... triportsad.gif To tackle that, a very nicely measuring headphone, which is the HD800, when well set up does everything phenomenally good. 

 

Sorry to be so blunt, but I think you were just so wrong with your statements! tongue_smile.gif

 

I enjoy counter-criticism, so any would be appreciated. Just don't push this debate over ban-worthy boundaries, if I haven't already.. wink.gif

 

 

"Preference"

 

Ones preference can never be wrong.  But one who tries to put their preference on others are.

 

Wrong in my statement - Where?

 

Because I prefer not using graphs and you do?  Wait - there goes that word again. biggrin.gif

 

Because I have no desire to read or use them?

 

Because my choice of music does not always sound like the graphs say they should sound?

 

This is not a debate and I'm not defensive.  You like graphs and you like what they "tell you what things SHOULD sound like".  I don't.  That's all.  It's just a difference in preference.

 

Your exactly right.  Musicality and Intimacy does not show up on graphs.  I think that an objective opinion between the both of us.

post #1813 of 2023
Shouldn't the "listen to your ears" vs "interpreting headphone measurements" thing go under the Sound Science board?
This debate has been going for quite some time in this thread now...and it just keeps going in circles. Is there any point to this?

Shure the SRH1840 measures poorly, and Shure some people think it sounds bad for its price, but a lot of people will also say they sound quite good. Personally I don't care for how the HD650 sounds even if 1) it sounds good to many AND 2) it measures well, but that's a personal preference, and people are entitled to their own opinions.

Just because I don't like the HD650 doesn't mean we should go on and start a flame war about how inferior my ears are, or how blind I am to be unable to see how well they measure. -.-
post #1814 of 2023
Quote:
Originally Posted by miceblue View Post

that's a personal preference, and people are entitled to their own opinions.

 

 

 

 

 

 

There's that word again..

post #1815 of 2023

Do i see some resemblance between this thread and the K550 thread??.. dejavu blink.gif

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