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Who still has the Sony SA5000? - Page 21

post #301 of 580
Quote:
Originally Posted by obobskivich View Post

From CSD, the SA5000 actually are pretty well damped/non-resonant (relatively speaking of course) - stats do better, the AD2000 seems to do better, but the SA5000 does better than a lot of other open cans (like the K701). 


you are right. it was just guess on my part cause they do suffer slight cancellation. i don't claim though of being right cause i do not know much so what i go by is just observing and making guesses and hoping to at least for a 50/50 chance to being somewhat right. if not i would like to be corrected so i don't make the same mistakes in the near future. from looking though, cancellation seems mainly near the upper midrange which shows up all the time in tests.

little bit extra damping might help them. making them completely open can help as well but i'm guessing it will make them even brighter so gonna have to take care front of the driver with thin piece of felt or type of foam disc to tame down the extra brightness or so how i see it in my head. haven't actually experimented or tested it out.
post #302 of 580

Mechanical damping can only do so much - the driver itself is going to resonate as a result of it's own characteristics. Grado talked about this a few years ago and got into resonance products when you have a lot of different materials hooked together, instead of a single material. Basically you have to deal with driver resonance, the enclosure resonance, and so on. This isn't to say SA5000 does a "bad job" - it actually does a really good job. I'm only aware of one headphone (Koss Pro/4AA) that has "flat" or "dead" LF response, and I've never tried them myself - reviews state they're very bass-light though.

 

Electrical damping, by contrast, is largely a non-issue; it doesn't really help with resonance or anything of that sort (it can't - sure, the way the advertisers write it up makes it sound all big and important, but it really doesn't do much). 

 

Here's some comparative measurements:

http://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?hl=en&ie=UTF8&prev=_t&rurl=translate.google.com&sl=auto&tl=en&u=http://www.geocities.jp/ryumatsuba/mdr-sa5000.html&usg=ALkJrhia0_4H6XE7KlVCucEdbVwh_7V07Q

 

http://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?hl=en&ie=UTF8&prev=_t&rurl=translate.google.com&sl=auto&tl=en&u=http://www.geocities.jp/ryumatsuba/pro4aa.html&usg=ALkJrhjpIIj9ZsrWvNQ3S0cqjG1kPbGWGw 

 

You can't compare these results to other sites (InnerFidelity, GE, etc) or purrin's measurements. 

 

Basically, they're fairly well put together (my hypothesis is that the Pro4/AA's are critically damped) - purrin's measurements also reflect this result as well (I don't think GE has ever done the SA5000). 

 

 

The reason I provided the Pro4/AA for comparison is because it's the closest to purrin's "perfection loopback" that I've yet seen (even more than stats; excepting the midrange ridge), but it isn't universally regarded as one of the best sounding headphones ever made (I've not tried them, and at 595g, I'm not really interested) - my thinking is basically that a perfectly flat CSD is not audibly ideal. 

post #303 of 580
i see. was kinda weird to read the impressions but i understood it. guess that's google translation for you. yea i know all measurements are different. i actually asked GE if they ever measure the sa-3000 and sa-5000. took them couple days to respond but told me when they manage to get some in. that was like over couple months ago though. not really big deal to me. just curious. thanks for the links.

koss still sells the pro 4AA's since they gotten so many requests they brought them back. i think it's 99 bucks for a pair. i don't know how they compare to the vintage models if koss ever did make changes to them at all for modern music like other studio headphones did. they didn't bring the 4AAA's back though. don't know if there was actual difference between the 4AA and 4AAA.
post #304 of 580

Because I am never one to be content (a Head-fier's curse), I thought I would make some notes about my new SA5000 and the latest round of tinkering.

 

When the SA5k arrived I thought that the sound was how I remembered the SA3k's sounding before I stuffed them full of blu-tac - notably, lighting fast, with loose bass and a slightly plasticky timbre. I opened up the 5k's and stuffed the baffle ring, this time with a denser material: a sound damping material I had found at Jaycar, similar to paxmate / dynamat, a 1.5mm thick layer of butyl rubber with a 3.5mm layer of foam on top. The material seems to work reasonably well as a sound damper / vibration absorber and the butyl certainly seems denser than blu-tac. The additional mass damping helped tighten up the bass, though the effect was, as always subtle. (I verified that it did make a difference though by doing one side and then listening for any changes first.

 

I tried pad swapping with the M50 pads again, with similar effect. However after a few comparisons with the stock leather earpads I found that the cloth layer that the pads add over the driver do indeed attentuate the treble, it also affects soundstage placement quite negatively. I assume this is because besides just reducing the treble, the cloth layer scatters and diffuses the treble in different directions, causing small delays in the time required for the high frequencies to reach the ear and thus smearing the transients. So I decided to stick with the stock leather earpads, which are frankly a little more breathable anyway.

 

I still found the timbre a little off. Following on from the dimpled blu-tac I added to the side of the baffle where the driver was angled (inspired by the HD800 experiments and the idea that the driver cup may be acting as a reflective surface and causing resonances), I added a strip of the sound dampening material to that curved wall and again verified that there was a change to the sound - the treble became a little more subdued and cohesive. Again, I stress, it was a subtle change but it was there.

 

Then I got a little paranoid about the hard edge that the strip of damping material had, and also wondered if the curve / exposed top of the baffle also contributed any ringing. So I fashioned a strip that would curve around the entire section.

 

_DSC2643.jpg

 

If you are wondering why the strip has a slightly complex shape, its both to allow the material to curve around the lip, but also to allow access to the crew holes, and also to avoid blocking the vents at the bottom of the driver. It looks a little odd, but once the cups are on, it actually looks subtle:

 

_DSC2644.jpg

 

Again I compared one side with the larger foam strip to the other, and again heard a subtle difference. The total effect is that the SA5000 sounds more natural without reducing (and possibly improving) the level of actual detail.  Now, I'm not going to put it down completely to the material eliminating any reflections from the plastic, since a strip this size is doing a few things based on my educated(?) guesses:

 

1. Reducing the potential for plastic reflections from the exposed plastic right next to the driver by absorbing / diffusing them.

2. Providing additional mass damping to the baffle.

3. Causing the earpads to rise slightly on one side, creating a natural angle that should improve soundstaging.

 

I think that most of these effects (besides the mass damping as the butyl rubber material is quite dense) could be replicated just by using a piece of felt as suggested in the HD800 experiments. Since this is an easy enough and reversible thing to do on the baffle side (though be careful as any adhesive that sticks to the existing felt ring around the driver may pull that felt ring off when removed) I hope my findings encourage someone else to try this and tell me I'm not just hearing things. :S

 

 

 

 


Edited by a_recording - 5/1/12 at 7:05am
post #305 of 580

^Are you still enjoying your melanine T50RP?

post #306 of 580
Quote:
Originally Posted by kiteki View Post

^Are you still enjoying your melanine T50RP?

 

I am! Though I've made a few changes since then. I don't usually use closed headphones at home though. I've mostly kept to the one headphone diet of the SA3k / SA5k.

post #307 of 580
Quote:
Originally Posted by a_recording View Post

Because I am never one to be content (a Head-fier's curse), I thought I would make some notes about my new SA5000 and the latest round of tinkering.

 

When the SA5k arrived I thought that the sound was how I remembered the SA3k's sounding before I stuffed them full of blu-tac - notably, lighting fast, with loose bass and a slightly plasticky timbre. I opened up the 5k's and stuffed the baffle ring, this time with a denser material: a sound damping material I had found at Jaycar, similar to paxmate / dynamat, a 1.5mm thick layer of butyl rubber with a 3.5mm layer of foam on top. The material seems to work reasonably well as a sound damper / vibration absorber and the butyl certainly seems denser than blu-tac. The additional mass damping helped tighten up the bass, though the effect was, as always subtle. (I verified that it did make a difference though by doing one side and then listening for any changes first.

 

I tried pad swapping with the M50 pads again, with similar effect. However after a few comparisons with the stock leather earpads I found that the cloth layer that the pads add over the driver do indeed attentuate the treble, it also affects soundstage placement quite negatively. I assume this is because besides just reducing the treble, the cloth layer scatters and diffuses the treble in different directions, causing small delays in the time required for the high frequencies to reach the ear and thus smearing the transients. So I decided to stick with the stock leather earpads, which are frankly a little more breathable anyway.

 

I still found the timbre a little off. Following on from the dimpled blu-tac I added to the side of the baffle where the driver was angled (inspired by the HD800 experiments and the idea that the driver cup may be acting as a reflective surface and causing resonances), I added a strip of the sound dampening material to that curved wall and again verified that there was a change to the sound - the treble became a little more subdued and cohesive. Again, I stress, it was a subtle change but it was there.

 

Then I got a little paranoid about the hard edge that the strip of damping material had, and also wondered if the curve / exposed top of the baffle also contributed any ringing. So I fashioned a strip that would curve around the entire section.

 

_DSC2643.jpg

 

If you are wondering why the strip has a slightly complex shape, its both to allow the material to curve around the lip, but also to allow access to the crew holes, and also to avoid blocking the vents at the bottom of the driver. It looks a little odd, but once the cups are on, it actually looks subtle:

 

_DSC2644.jpg

 

Again I compared one side with the larger foam strip to the other, and again heard a subtle difference. The total effect is that the SA5000 sounds more natural without reducing (and possibly improving) the level of actual detail.  Now, I'm not going to put it down completely to the material eliminating any reflections from the plastic, since a strip this size is doing a few things based on my educated(?) guesses:

 

1. Reducing the potential for plastic reflections from the exposed plastic right next to the driver by absorbing / diffusing them.

2. Providing additional mass damping to the baffle.

3. Causing the earpads to rise slightly on one side, creating a natural angle that should improve soundstaging.

 

I think that most of these effects (besides the mass damping as the butyl rubber material is quite dense) could be replicated just by using a piece of felt as suggested in the HD800 experiments. Since this is an easy enough and reversible thing to do on the baffle side (though be careful as any adhesive that sticks to the existing felt ring around the driver may pull that felt ring off when removed) I hope my findings encourage someone else to try this and tell me I'm not just hearing things. :S

 

 

 

 

Whoa...

Did you do anything to the bottom of the can where the cable enters the housing? 

My pair seems to have string lodged somewhere in it. 

post #308 of 580
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sil3nce View Post

Whoa...

Did you do anything to the bottom of the can where the cable enters the housing? 

My pair seems to have string lodged somewhere in it. 

 

I didn't, but it would be relatively easy to open them up to clear that string.

post #309 of 580

Okay, one more new experiment:

 

Does anyone in this enterprising thread have both the SA5000 and a pair of HiFiMan velour earpads?

 

I'm just trying this combination now, but I don't want to prime anyone as to how it sounds. I was wondering if anyone could give their impressions of the combo.

 

Yes this is kind of a tease, but I've switched through so many earpads now that I almost don't trust my ears anymore.

post #310 of 580

New or original Hifiman velour pads?

post #311 of 580
Quote:
Originally Posted by sunneebear View Post

New or original Hifiman velour pads?

 

Hmm. I'm not sure. I assume the ones I have are new, I ordered them from HIfiman a month or two ago...

post #312 of 580
Quote:
Originally Posted by a_recording View Post

Hmm. I'm not sure. I assume the ones I have are new, I ordered them from HIfiman a month or two ago...

Not sure how you're liking the sa5ks at the moment.
But I'm in love with them. I don't know, it must be the source and amp.
They don't have the metallic highs and artificial sound at all, timbre is breathtaking !
Ps: Trance is off the charts.
post #313 of 580
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sil3nce View Post

Not sure how you're liking the sa5ks at the moment.
But I'm in love with them. I don't know, it must be the source and amp.
They don't have the metallic highs and artificial sound at all, timbre is breathtaking !
Ps: Trance is off the charts.

 

I'm not sure how to put this: I love them, especially for their speed and transparency. However I keep wanting to change their actual tonal balance. I don't think they have a metallic or artifical sound, and I think they are actually quite smooth in the highs. It's just I keep wishing they had more... sweetness? I know it sounds strange that I keep tweaking them - why don't I just go buy something like a HD650 or a HE-500 or something? The thing is, to get the level of build quality, transient speed and comfort that the SA5000's have, for the price I paid for them, there would probably very few equivalents. I take it as a bit of a personal challenge to make the SA5000's the best to my ears that they could be, but also semi-objectively the best they can be in terms of resonances, reflections, etc. They are my classy T50RP's.

post #314 of 580
I don't think I can understand you anymore than what you said lol smily_headphones1.gif
You're literally thinking the same thing I did 2 months ago.
But you know what? I got used to them. Sometimes you just have to accept them the way they are.
Women you know? Bro, it's leave them or start cherishing them ( or in my case a nightly rendezvous).
But of course all up to you!
post #315 of 580
Quote:
Originally Posted by a_recording View Post

I'm not sure how to put this: I love them, especially for their speed and transparency. However I keep wanting to change their actual tonal balance. I don't think they have a metallic or artifical sound, and I think they are actually quite smooth in the highs. It's just I keep wishing they had more... sweetness? I know it sounds strange that I keep tweaking them - why don't I just go buy something like a HD650 or a HE-500 or something? The thing is, to get the level of build quality, transient speed and comfort that the SA5000's have, for the price I paid for them, there would probably very few equivalents. I take it as a bit of a personal challenge to make the SA5000's the best to my ears that they could be, but also semi-objectively the best they can be in terms of resonances, reflections, etc. They are my classy T50RP's.

I get what you're saying. I would suggest, if you can, an MDR-F1 audition (if you haven't already). It *might* (*might*) be what you're looking for here. Less bass, but I certainly would agree with that "sweetness" or "tonal balance" bit - the F1 has it spades. It just swings. The SA5000 does a lot better, but it feels more technical about it too. Again, at least worth a try. Otherwise, tweak away! Your posts thus far have been very interesting! beerchug.gif
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