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Q701 impressions thread - Page 109

post #1621 of 7626
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mad Lust Envy View Post

The 600ohm has a clearer sound, but that clearer sound comes at the cost of less bass presence, and more treble presence. The 32ohm doesn't have the ultra clarity, but its still quite clear, and less tiresome overall. Again, they sound quite similar. I'd say the 600ohm needs a warm tube amp, while the 32ohm doesn't, and sounds good off any decent amp.

 

Tubes vs. SS lines up with my experience.

The 600 Ohm has enough bass for me, thank you.

I'll temper that with the statement that I do not have long term experience with the 32 Ohm version.

post #1622 of 7626
Quote:
Originally Posted by NimbleTurtle View Post

Maybe a problem with amping? I've only personally listened to the DT880/600 but I remember reading from Tyll's article at Inner Fidelity that the 600 ohm version was far superior to the 32 ohm version. A tube amp should provide enough sufficient voltage to such a high impedance can, although maybe unfavorable distortion will occur. 

 

Good question.

The Matrix M Stage has more than enough output voltage to drive the 600 Ohm '880s

The Output impedance is low enough.

Technically it should work.

It just comes down to, I don't like that combo.

But I do like the OTL La Figaro 336C (with the right tubes) and DT880.

 

OTOH...........since this is a Q701 thread biggrin.gif.............the Q701 works great with the M Stage and not so good with the 336C.

post #1623 of 7626

As a follow-up to my earlier post, the last two nights I have not experienced any listening fatigue. Of course, the music has been different so that is undoubtedly part of it. I have also exercised more control over the volume knob and tried to not let the level get too loud.  However, what I don't understand is why when I played back tracks that I had found fatiguing on the AKGs on my Grado sr80i, they did not bother me at all (level matching as best as I could by ear). Grado has a reputation for being bright and forward, although my sr80's have never been fatiguing to me.  I would have expected that anything that was fatuguing to me on the Q701 would be at  least as bad on the Grados, but that has not been the case.

post #1624 of 7626
Thread Starter 

Using the ODAC and O2 with the Q701 would drive my crazy I think. I've been listening to my Q701 with my Micro Amp and ODAC and I feel like my ears have been bombarded with crappy music overload.

It's really annoying when you go from being wowed with how great a song sounds and then the next 5 have harsh treble, thin mids and really just horrible. Not the Q701's fault, but definitely the recording. Positive.

Maybe I don't want a DAC this revealing for the Q701. Basically the ODAC has like ZERO warmth of it's own at all. Even the perfectly flat Sansa Clip+ and my X-Fi Go Pro has some. The fatigue isn't coming from the treble.

I think it's just due to how revealing the ODAC is. Basically a combination of several things. Sometimes it will be the mids and other times the treble. Maybe just too much detail overload.

 

The ODAC and my amp seems to suck the life out of most of the music in my collection. I know that means I prefer some coloration, so that's OK. Maybe bad recordings are really more common than I previously imagined.

When I listen to the Q701 and ODAC, it's like I can't really enjoy any of it. Ok, at least a large part of it.

 

Now it's too bad there were not more recordings that sounded warm and amazing sounding. I can hear these bad songs on the HD-580 and they're nearly as bad. Obviously the HD-580 does make them easier on the ears due to being a quite warm headphone with thicker mids.

 

I just connected the ODAC up to my E9. It's most definitely less revealing of the crap files i've been listening to (FLAC). It's as if the E9 smooths over some recordings slightly and they're not quite as bad, but close.

I actually never realized this at first, but I think the E9 is actually warmer than my Micro Amp. I thought it was the opposite actually! Guess it was due to the HRT MSII. The mids are VERY slightly fuller (but not like the E10). The e9 seems to have the same amount of treble as my Micro. I think the E9 might be a tad more bassy. Obviously the differences in the signatures of amps are very small.

 

Want to know something weird? With my Q701 and Micro Amp it has a smaller soundstage than the E9 when using the HRT MSII. When using the ODAC with both amps, it's about the same. I can't explain this one. Any ideas? The soundstage of my Micro with the Q701 varies a ton based on what's connected to it. The HRT MSII to my Micro with the HD-580 has a tiny soundstage. With the Q701 it's quite large still.

 

I think the crossfeed on my amp will help the sound a bit (some think it adds some warmth?!). I find Canare Starquad cables are slightly warm (due to really high capacitance), so that might help. I have a Q701 Canare cable I made that i'll try. Any tiny bit of extra warmth might help. The Q701 itself doesn't really need any extra wamrth on 95% of what i've tried it on.

 

TLDR: I find the ODAC + my amp + Q701 to not be that musical (just the setup, not each part in general). Meaning it's so excessively revealing that it's harder to just enjoy what you're listening to. Right now the impressive songs that actually are well mastered and sound good are coming along so rarely. Right now i'm listening to a song and it sounds like it's sounds like it's being played inside a cave (not due to the Q701's soundstage silly). Not even joking. Next I have a new cantopop song and it sounds like the person is singing right into my ears. Pretty crystal clear though and sounds fine overall. The whole song is fairly smooth sounding.

 

I bet the DT-880 with this setup would be even worse. I imagine the best headphone for this setup would be the HD-650. If you prefer a musical sounding DAC (nothing wrong with that!) i'd avoid the ODAC. Ok, now my ears are hurting.

 

Oh yeah... one more weird thing.. I'm listening to Parting Ways from Pearl Jam (Binaural album). It sounds really very warm and full. Like I have my bass EQed on my Q701. Almost like how I'd imagine it to sound on the HD-650. But yet it's coming from my dang ODAC and Q701. Yet the next song sounds as if it's coming from an AD700. Can you say annoying?

 

NOTE: This Canare DIY Q701 "snake oil" really seems to add a tiny bit of extra warmth to the Q701 for all those really awful songs. Now I just need a new interconnect cable. I'm using a $2,000 Monoprice cable. One of the first times I could actually stand Canare.

 

If I was smart I'd just not just the Q701 with the ODAC! I guess all this hassle has been sort of a learning experience.

 

Slight update..that Canare cable really helps the Q701 a bit (with ODAC). It now sounds closer to how it does with the HRT MSII. Meaning just slightly easier on the ears. I don't know what the reason is for the extra warmth (not much). Your guess is as good as mine. I'm guessing it's due to the higher capacitance of the Canare.


Edited by tdockweiler - 8/25/12 at 2:00pm
post #1625 of 7626
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris J View Post

Tubes vs. SS lines up with my experience.
The 600 Ohm has enough bass for me, thank you.
I'll temper that with the statement that I do not have long term experience with the 32 Ohm version.

I'm speaking of maybe a 5% difference overall. The 32ohm and 600ohm are very much alike, including the bass. The 600ohm is just slightly better controlled. Its not like going from a bassy can to a boomy one.
post #1626 of 7626
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdockweiler View Post

Using the ODAC and O2 with the Q701 would drive my crazy I think. I've been listening to my Q701 with my Micro Amp and ODAC and I feel like my ears have been bombarded with crappy music overload.

It's really annoying when you go from being wowed with how great a song sounds and then the next 5 have harsh treble, thin mids and really just horrible. Not the Q701's fault, but definitely the recording. Positive.

Maybe I don't want a DAC this revealing for the Q701. Basically the ODAC has like ZERO warmth of it's own at all. Even the perfectly flat Sansa Clip+ and my X-Fi Go Pro has some. The fatigue isn't coming from the treble.

I think it's just due to how revealing the ODAC is. Basically a combination of several things. Sometimes it will be the mids and other times the treble. Maybe just too much detail overload.

 

The ODAC and my amp seems to suck the life out of most of the music in my collection. I know that means I prefer some coloration, so that's OK. Maybe bad recordings are really more common than I previously imagined.

When I listen to the Q701 and ODAC, it's like I can't really enjoy any of it. Ok, at least a large part of it.

 

Now it's too bad there were not more recordings that sounded warm and amazing sounding. I can hear these bad songs on the HD-580 and they're nearly as bad. Obviously the HD-580 does make them easier on the ears due to being a quite warm headphone with thicker mids.

 

I just connected the ODAC up to my E9. It's most definitely less revealing of the crap files i've been listening to (FLAC). It's as if the E9 smooths over some recordings slightly and they're not quite as bad, but close.

I actually never realized this at first, but I think the E9 is actually warmer than my Micro Amp. I thought it was the opposite actually! Guess it was due to the HRT MSII. The mids are VERY slightly fuller (but not like the E10). The e9 seems to have the same amount of treble as my Micro. I think the E9 might be a tad more bassy. Obviously the differences in the signatures of amps are very small.

 

Want to know something weird? With my Q701 and Micro Amp it has a smaller soundstage than the E9 when using the HRT MSII. When using the ODAC with both amps, it's about the same. I can't explain this one. Any ideas? The soundstage of my Micro with the Q701 varies a ton based on what's connected to it. The HRT MSII to my Micro with the HD-580 has a tiny soundstage. With the Q701 it's quite large still.

 

I think the crossfeed on my amp will help the sound a bit (some think it adds some warmth?!). I find Canare Starquad cables are slightly warm (due to really high capacitance), so that might help. I have a Q701 Canare cable I made that i'll try. Any tiny bit of extra warmth might help. The Q701 itself doesn't really need any extra wamrth on 95% of what i've tried it on.

 

TLDR: I find the ODAC + my amp + Q701 to not be that musical (just the setup, not each part in general). Meaning it's so excessively revealing that it's harder to just enjoy what you're listening to. Right now the impressive songs that actually are well mastered and sound good are coming along so rarely. Right now i'm listening to a song and it sounds like it's sounds like it's being played inside a cave (not due to the Q701's soundstage silly). Not even joking. Next I have a new cantopop song and it sounds like the person is singing right into my ears. Pretty crystal clear though and sounds fine overall. The whole song is fairly smooth sounding.

 

I bet the DT-880 with this setup would be even worse. I imagine the best headphone for this setup would be the HD-650. If you prefer a musical sounding DAC (nothing wrong with that!) i'd avoid the ODAC. Ok, now my ears are hurting.

 

Oh yeah... one more weird thing.. I'm listening to Parting Ways from Pearl Jam (Binaural album). It sounds really very warm and full. Like I have my bass EQed on my Q701. Almost like how I'd imagine it to sound on the HD-650. But yet it's coming from my dang ODAC and Q701. Yet the next song sounds as if it's coming from an AD700. Can you say annoying?

 

NOTE: This Canare DIY Q701 "snake oil" really seems to add a tiny bit of extra warmth to the Q701 for all those really awful songs. Now I just need a new interconnect cable. I'm using a $2,000 Monoprice cable. One of the first times I could actually stand Canare.

 

If I was smart I'd just not just the Q701 with the ODAC! I guess all this hassle has been sort of a learning experience.

 

Slight update..that Canare cable really helps the Q701 a bit (with ODAC). It now sounds closer to how it does with the HRT MSII. Meaning just slightly easier on the ears. I don't know what the reason is for the extra warmth (not much). Your guess is as good as mine. I'm guessing it's due to the higher capacitance of the Canare.

I think your posts have me convinced that it's not the best DAC to use with the k702! In theory adding more detail would be a good thing, but if the source files or the recordings are flawed I can see how having more detail retrieval could pose a problem. Unfortunately a lot of my collection is 256kbs or 320k mp3's. But I still think the ODAC might be worth trying with the dt48, since they have great detail retrieval but have no big peaks in the upper mids or treble to make bad recordings sound worse. BTW, if you have a ODAC you want to part with shoot me a PM. 

post #1627 of 7626
Quote:
Originally Posted by lejaz View Post

I think your posts have me convinced that it's not the best DAC to use with the k702! In theory adding more detail would be a good thing, but if the source files or the recordings are flawed I can see how having more detail retrieval could pose a problem. Unfortunately a lot of my collection is 256kbs or 320k mp3's. But I still think the ODAC might be worth trying with the dt48, since they have great detail retrieval but have no big peaks in the upper mids or treble to make bad recordings sound worse. BTW, if you have a ODAC you want to part with shoot me a PM. 

Meh. I've seen some people satisfied with the Q701 + ODAC. I think the whole idea of poor recordings is blown out of proportions. Sure there are plenty of poor recordings out there but not to the point where they sound awful. The ODAC by design is supposed to be dead transparent, which points the blame on the recordings or the cans used. In this case, I'd blame the cans. If I had a Q701, I'd EQ down the treble at specific regions, so you can hear the bass and midrange better. 

post #1628 of 7626
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by lejaz View Post

I think your posts have me convinced that it's not the best DAC to use with the k702! In theory adding more detail would be a good thing, but if the source files or the recordings are flawed I can see how having more detail retrieval could pose a problem. Unfortunately a lot of my collection is 256kbs or 320k mp3's. But I still think the ODAC might be worth trying with the dt48, since they have great detail retrieval but have no big peaks in the upper mids or treble to make bad recordings sound worse. BTW, if you have a ODAC you want to part with shoot me a PM. 


Oh..the K702 would probably be even worse. The Canare idea is working out well, but my ears have only lasted around 4 hours today.

I think for me it's not an issue of bitrate (unless it's like under 192 etc), but more due how bad the recordings are when made in the studio. I can just imagine them being made with a Monster Beats headphone as their reference.

 

I hate to say it, but the ODAC honestly doesn't make me like the Q701 just for music listening. On 95% of all the other "normal" gear it's perfect for me. Sounds very musical and fun with the HRT MSII, E10, Clip+ as source to amp and even my CD players.

Gasp..maybe the ODAC really DOES have slightly edgy treble. I'm not going to argue with measurements. The e7 measures perfectly flat I guess and it sounded bad to me. All these perfectly neutral sources always sound slightly different to my ears.

 

I have 14 days return policy on the ODAC and I'd feel guilty if I returned it. I actually sold my HRT MSII to fund the purchase. Doh! Go me... sure, it's "technically" better. Don't care...

 

What i'd love in a DAC is for it to be like the ODAC, but a tad less revealing, have slightly warmer and fuller mids and smoother treble. Maybe my dumb ears and poor recordings just prefer something like the E17 or HRT MSII. The only time the MSII bothered me is when recordings sounded like the mids were cranked up to max. Nothing else ever...well maybe a few bad tracks that have excessive amounts of treble.

 

I'm going to be listening to the E10 for the next 2 days. Need a vacation from the ODAC. Hopefully the E17 is similar to the E10, but has less forward mids and more extended treble.

 

Oh yeah..the ODAC seems to make the treble of my Q701 sound more like that of the DT-880. Must be hearing things...

post #1629 of 7626
Quote:
Originally Posted by NimbleTurtle View Post

Meh. I've seen some people satisfied with the Q701 + ODAC. I think the whole idea of poor recordings is blown out of proportions. Sure there are plenty of poor recordings out there but not to the point where they sound awful. The ODAC by design is supposed to be dead transparent, which points the blame on the recordings or the cans used. In this case, I'd blame the cans. If I had a Q701, I'd EQ down the treble at specific regions, so you can hear the bass and midrange better. 

I have some old jazz stuff that's quite poorly recorded....from '50's and '60's and even some earlier stuff. I find it more tolerable to listen to those with the dt48...in fact I can often forget the recording and just get lost in the music. It's probably because the dt48, while being very reveling, has no big upper midrange or treble peak., like I hear with the k702.  I'd like to hear the 'Q'  for myself one day for comparison with the 'k'. I have a feeling that the 'k' with the 'friend or foe' mod would be very similar, if not impossible to differentiate from the 'Q'.

post #1630 of 7626
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by NimbleTurtle View Post

Meh. I've seen some people satisfied with the Q701 + ODAC. I think the whole idea of poor recordings is blown out of proportions. Sure there are plenty of poor recordings out there but not to the point where they sound awful. The ODAC by design is supposed to be dead transparent, which points the blame on the recordings or the cans used. In this case, I'd blame the cans. If I had a Q701, I'd EQ down the treble at specific regions, so you can hear the bass and midrange better. 


Have you tried the ODAC with the Q701 and a really transparent/revealing amp? Without hearing it for yourself, your comments don't really help anyone. If you mainly use only the HD-598, that's probably why you think this. Not trying to be a jerk.

The HD-598 makes nearly everything sound great. Bad recordings included. OK, not ALL of them, but it's quite forgiving (less so than the HD-650). It makes everything sound smoother than it really is. That's one reason I love it. The Q701 + ODAC would be nicer if you had a dark and warm amp to go with it. The Q701 without the ODAC doesn't need it.

 

Have you heard the DT-880? That also will really show you how bad so many recordings are. No ODAC and fancy pants amp required. An HD-598 on the other hand will make almost everything sound good.

 

 

100% NOT the headphones fault. Definitely the recording. You can hear it in a similar way on another headphone that's very revealing. My HD-580 will show me the song is bad, but it only sounds better on my ears due to having way less treble and more mid-bass. I don't find the HD-580 all that revealing. Somewhat, but not overkill. Good recordings on the Q701 are perfect. Well made albums with lots of treble are no problem with my ears at all ever on the Q701.

 

FYI i've never ever heard a setup this revealing. I mean, my stuff is considered budget gear too mostly. The Q701 is slightly warm by itself, so I don't even want to imagine the DT-880 would sound like with the ODAC. Probably would give me nightmares. I remember it having very cold/thin mids. Like more so than on any other headphone.

 

BTW I just switched from my Q701 to DJ100. Songs still sound bad, but it's definitely MUCH warmer (probably more than even the recording is). It seems that on very warm headphones, the flaws don't seem to stick out as much. I guess that's a plus for me! Not that the DJ100 is very warm. A little less than the HD-580.

 

I do like the ODAC a LOT. Sounds amazing with the HD-580 and my other headphones, but not so much with the Q701. Maybe if my amp was warmer/darker. I think it just comes down to preference.


Edited by tdockweiler - 8/25/12 at 4:07pm
post #1631 of 7626

To be fair, I just a/b'd my newly received HD800s to the Q701s, and the AKGs can fight their corner pretty darned well...

 

They sound a bit shouty / harsh / abrasive compared to the HD800s, but - considering the cost difference... not too shabby at all!

post #1632 of 7626
I an understand Tdock. Sure, lots of people aim for pure reference, but there is a reason why so man companies use a little warmth in their DACs and amps (hello Tube amps). If you're going to analyze music, instead of enjoy it, then go ahead and get dry, analytical headphone with the O2 and ODAC.

We all have preferences, and a lot of us like some musicality in our equipment. If Tdock doesn't like the ODAC, its fine. Its like me preferring the DT990/32 over the 600ohm. The 600ohm is more revealing, while the 32ohm is more musical and less harsh to recordings.
post #1633 of 7626
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mad Lust Envy View Post

I an understand Tdock. Sure, lots of people aim for pure reference, but there is a reason why so man companies use a little warmth in their DACs and amps (hello Tube amps). If you're going to analyze music, instead of enjoy it, then go ahead and get dry, analytical headphone with the O2 and ODAC.
We all have preferences, and a lot of us like some musicality in our equipment. If Tdock doesn't like the ODAC, its fine. Its like me preferring the DT990/32 over the 600ohm. The 600ohm is more revealing, while the 32ohm is more musical and less harsh to recordings.

 

What's funny is that people said the ODAC/O2 were dry and analytical and I kind of ignored that. I'd be raving about it maybe if I had the HD-650 or like say the HD-600. People with darker headphones would love it i'd imagine.

I don't know why I would have thought the ODAC was a good idea with the Q701. I've never had a DAC be too revealing. Figured that was impossible. It doesn't help that up until a few weeks ago I thought my amp was fairly warm. Definitely don't think that's the case now thanks to the ODAC.

 

BTW this thing even seems to be improving my DJ100 quite a bit. Lots more detail, but it's perfectly smooth so far and bad stuff doesn't sound nearly as bad. Seems like there's a little more bass than I remember, but it's probably because my ears have been so used to the Q701!

post #1634 of 7626
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mad Lust Envy View Post

I an understand Tdock. Sure, lots of people aim for pure reference, but there is a reason why so man companies use a little warmth in their DACs and amps (hello Tube amps). If you're going to analyze music, instead of enjoy it, then go ahead and get dry, analytical headphone with the O2 and ODAC.
We all have preferences, and a lot of us like some musicality in our equipment. If Tdock doesn't like the ODAC, its fine. Its like me preferring the DT990/32 over the 600ohm. The 600ohm is more revealing, while the 32ohm is more musical and less harsh to recordings.

If I'm listening to a well recorded vocalist, I'll go for the 'pure reference' quality any day.....especially someone of the quality of a Norah Jones. I probably feel the same about a great acoustic jazz instrumental, assuming it's a good recording.  Why not have it as 'real' as real can be? If the engineers and producers take great pains to make the best possible recording of a great artist, where's the need to add 'musicality'? It's already musical!

post #1635 of 7626
Not everyone has your taste. I have owned plenty of headphones, and I could never fully enjoy the more reference type of sound. I listen to music for enjoyment.

Reference sound is good and all, but its overrated. I don't care for trying to impress anyone else by saying I want music the way it was recorded. I want music the way *I* enjoy it.
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