Head-Fi.org › Forums › Summit-Fi (High-End Audio) › High-end Audio Forum › LCD3 Measurements
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

LCD3 Measurements - Page 6

post #76 of 236
Quote:
Originally Posted by HelloHell View Post

Yes, Audez'e mentioned that they applied better quality control on the LCD-3s but the fact is there seem to be more "manufacturing variances" than I expected.



Again..the HD800 graphs varied about as much from what I remember....and have a look at a few different beyer T1s:

 

http://www.innerfidelity.com/images/BeyerdynamicT1.pdf

 

http://www.innerfidelity.com/images/BeyerdynamicT1SN3964.pdf

 

The LCD-3s so far seem to be pretty much in line with the other flagship headphones out there.

 

And finally there is the measurement system itself will introduce variability. Every year for bring your kids to work day, I perform a quick Gage R&R were we measure the length of a 7 foot table using a ruler, meter stick and 25 foot measuring tape. Guess what: the 7" table's length varies between both which gauges were used AND which people took the measurements (even with the same measuring tool).

 

A good measurement system will have variability less than 10% of the total variability measured.


Edited by MacedonianHero - 11/18/11 at 10:29pm
post #77 of 236
Thread Starter 

Geez, I can't believe there's so much brouhaha over LCD3 "variances!" This is crazy. Your LCD3s are all fine. If there were serious issues, I would be the first person to not only bitch about it, but also post evidence.

 

Thus Has The Purrin Spoken!

 

P.S. Listen first, if there is an issue, then verify with measurements.


Edited by purrin - 11/18/11 at 10:36pm
post #78 of 236
Quote:
Originally Posted by MacedonianHero View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by HelloHell View Post

Yes, Audez'e mentioned that they applied better quality control on the LCD-3s but the fact is there seem to be more "manufacturing variances" than I expected.


Again..the HD800 graphs varied about as much from what I remember....and have a look at a few different beyer T1s:

 

http://www.innerfidelity.com/images/BeyerdynamicT1.pdf

 

http://www.innerfidelity.com/images/BeyerdynamicT1SN3964.pdf

 

The LCD-3s so far seem to be pretty much in line with the other flagship headphones out there.

 

And finally there is the measurement system itself will introduce variability. Every year for bring your kids to work day, I perform a quick Gage R&R were we measure the length of a 7 foot table using a ruler, meter stick and 25 foot measuring tape. Guess what: the 7" table's length varies between both which gauges were used AND which people took the measurements (even with the same measuring tool).

 

A good measurement system will have variability less than 10% of the total variability measured.


I'm assuming that Audeze has a good measurement system.

 

 

post #79 of 236

Agreed!! That's what I meant by there can be variance, but they can still be good.

 

They're not laboratory grade measuring instruments, I presume.
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by purrin View Post

Geez, I can't believe there's so much brouhaha over LCD3 "variances!" This is crazy. Your LCD3s are all fine. If there were serious issues, I would be the first person to not only bitch about it, but also post evidence.

 

Thus Has The Purrin Spoken!

 

P.S. Listen first, if there is an issue, then verify with measurements.



 

post #80 of 236
Quote:
Originally Posted by purrin View Post


LCD3, SR009, and HD800 (anax mod) below:

lcd3 r.txt.jpg

 


T1

T1 L.txt.jpg

 

 


Thanks so much for doing the measurements Purrin!

Funny that I joked about the T1's sound signature calling it blood red treble before and now I can see the CSD graphs. The Grado and T1 are like volcanic eruptions.
 

It's interesting that the LCD3's upper treble decays like that. Do you think this effects the sound? Maybe it smears the treble detail? I notice bright headphones tend to do that rendering some high frequency detail completely inaudible. Or maybe it leads to more perceived detail?

post #81 of 236

Interesting..why is there such a variance between LCD-3s? Shouldn't the technology available today produce consistency? This is worrying..for the price of the LCD-3, every headphone should have an excellent frequency response.

post #82 of 236


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by purrin View Post

Geez, I can't believe there's so much brouhaha over LCD3 "variances!" This is crazy. Your LCD3s are all fine. If there were serious issues, I would be the first person to not only bitch about it, but also post evidence.

 

Thus Has The Purrin Spoken!

 

P.S. Listen first, if there is an issue, then verify with measurements.


Let's wait for the effect of the alcohol to wear out a bit before continuing the conversation as you're reallly starting to sound condescending :).

 

I respect your experience but clearly I don't see how you can be so affirmative having tested 1 pair of lcd3's. You complained about the variabilities with previous gen Audeze and now you believe there's no meaning to gather a population response on the lcd3? No offense but I find it far more useful / educating than looking at 1 sample test through 1 peculiar measurement system...

 

Or maybe you're upset about those claiming wide differences? I haven't looked at the data enough to make any judgement. It does all look relatively consistent on these 100dB scale charts with such heavy smoothing.

 

As for test gear, audeze is using pro equipment ( an actual recording dummy and clio). They also obviously know how to use to minimize variations due to the operator. The spread is either due to the driver or more likely the positioning / ear pads consistency.

post #83 of 236
Thread Starter 

It's more people freaking out over minor differences.

 

All the graphs posted are very similar to each other. The shelving starts at the same place, the shelf destination is about 10db down by 5 to 7kHz with a few spots where it dips below (around 3k to 5k) and a bump (around 2k to 3k). There a rising response right above 10kHz. There is a very consistent pattern here from headphone to headphone. The 100db scale shouldn't matter here with a careful eye. The smoothing may be an issue, but these LCD3s according to their owners are audibly smooth in the upper midrange and treble, so maybe it's not a major obfuscating factor.

 

I'm doing these measurements to get manufacturers to be more honest, yet at the same time, I don't want to start a trend where people start seeing stuff that really isn't there. I've heard three LCD3s and measured one so far without any FR issues. It's not that I'm being affirmative, it's just that I want to put a stop to people saying there are issues where it hasn't yet been proven that there are. As you know, a few bad samples can statistically show a pattern of defects, whereas a large sample is required to show good quality.

post #84 of 236
Quote:
Originally Posted by purrin View Post

Geez, I can't believe there's so much brouhaha over LCD3 "variances!" This is crazy. Your LCD3s are all fine. If there were serious issues, I would be the first person to not only bitch about it, but also post evidence.

 

Thus Has The Purrin Spoken!

 

P.S. Listen first, if there is an issue, then verify with measurements.



How many LCD3s have you measured? If we're talking variance shouldn't you need to test a lot of LCD3s to report variances?

post #85 of 236
Quote:
Originally Posted by purrin View Post

Graph of the Titans

Zoom In Overhead Comparisons

  • Floor moved down to -39db (it's usually -30 for most of my graphs.) This makes things extremely revealing - as we will see with comparisons with other headphones. Note the Audeze provided CSDs only go down -25db.
  • Frequency range is 1000kHz to 22kHz. Let's us concentrate on the most critical portion of the audio band for this type of measurement.
  • Short focus timeframe from 0ms to 3ms.

 

LCD3, SR009, and HD800 (anax mod) below:

lcd3 r.txt.jpg SR009 r.txt.jpg HD800-4.txt.jpg


I'm really loving the graph on the HD800 there.

 

post #86 of 236

I think Audeze made a mistake supplying their graphs.  It's got too much smoothing and doesn't show both channels and there's too much variance in the positioning for them to mean anything (according to yall anyways).  Or there is actual variance in the drivers.  Either way, the only thing they contribute is paranoia.  If I paid 2k and got a graph that had a weird valley I'd rip my own nuts off. 

 

I get why they wanted to, because professional speaker monitors come with them (or at least mine did) so it gives them that nice flava flave but they ought to either be meaningful or axed IMO, 


Edited by rhythmdevils - 11/19/11 at 1:51am
post #87 of 236
Quote:
Originally Posted by purrin View Post

It's more people freaking out over minor differences.


People freak out about everything here.  Unfortunately they often freak out about stuff they can only pretend to understand.

 

post #88 of 236

The lcd-2 rev.2 were much more similiar than the rev.1.

I believe the lcd-3 are even more similiar.

Furthermore, the foundamental thing is that left and right pads are similiar to each other, they don't have to be similiar to other lcd-3 -.-

post #89 of 236


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Currawong View Post




People freak out about everything here.  Unfortunately they often freak out about stuff they can only pretend to understand.

 


My vote for quote of the week. :)

 

 

post #90 of 236

 

What we will find is there can be only one with the best graphical profile.and probably there will be some argument about that..and anything less is not good enough and will be considered ostensibly having some flaw.

 

To much information will confuse those who do not understand the engineering and statistical variations behind what these graphs represent.  This is one reason why reputable manufacturer's probably may not want this stuff out in public more than attempting to hide anything in particular.


Edited by slwiser - 11/19/11 at 9:27am
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: High-end Audio Forum
Head-Fi.org › Forums › Summit-Fi (High-End Audio) › High-end Audio Forum › LCD3 Measurements