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History of the AKG K1000? - Page 5

post #61 of 205

Thank you Heinz, you are now an official member of the Headphone Designers' Hall of Fame, together with Axel Grell:

 

http://gizmodo.com/5949316/ask-one-of-the-worlds-top-headphone-engineers-whatever-you-want

 

And Willi Presutti:

 

http://www.head-fi.org/t/192939/id-these

 

Let's invite more candidates from Sony, STAX, Beyer and Yamaha.

post #62 of 205

Not sure if Axel Grell would qualify as he was pretty stum about the Sennheiser design processes and technical development AND

no announcement of the rumored new electrostatic at RMAF frown.gif

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by MDR30 View Post

Thank you Heinz, you are now an official member of the Headphone Designers' Hall of Fame, together with Axel Grell:

 

 

 

Come to think of it hrklg01 I don't remember AKG ever launching a true electrostatic?

Do you happen to know if this is something AKG considered or worked on?

post #63 of 205

I just bought a pair of K1000's, serial 29xx, been driving them with my Stratus and it's audio nirvana.
 

post #64 of 205

Great to have your input & participation here, Herr Heinz!

 

I always wondered if the K1000 design was somewhat based on the C414 microphone, perhaps due to available parts? Just curious.

AKG-C414.jpg

post #65 of 205
Jpelg, indeed it is strikingly similar to the back of the k1000 driver! So, Mike (mkubota1) brought his k1000 along on the trip to the Fujiya Avic fall headphone festival in tokyo this week end (many thanks for this mike!!). That was the first time I could have a proper listen and it was an interesting experience. The lack of pads and natural crossfeed makes for a rather special experience, quite enjoyable. Only thing is that you feel there's a speaker right there in front of your ears so this does not quite diseappear like a 009 does for me. I wonder if this is due due spurious vibration of the frame (the whole thing is vibrating significantly with the driver), else strong directivity of the essentially unbaffled driver. In terms of bass, it was definitely clean but lacking (a bit or not so much) depending on the record. Mike said it's a late production model, hence bass lite. I guess I could get used to it if I only listened to that rig. More realistically, I would probably grow frustrated with the lack of bass quantity / extension. One thing I noticed is the presence of a passive circuit in line with the driver. There's an inductance and a surface mount resistance it seems. High pass filter to prevent the driver to go out of bounds at its resonance frequency maybe? I could not notice any obvious midrange coloration but probably it would require a more extensive test to find out. Overall, it's not like I want one badly but at least this has convinced me I need to carry through my investigation of personal HRTF equalization as discussed in the realiser thread ( http://www.head-fi.org/t/418401/long-awaited-smyth-svs-realiser-now-available-for-purchase/2100#post_8805662 ). Mike actually showed me tiny mics that fit at the entrance of the ear canal and may do a fine job to give a taste of the realiser.
Edited by arnaud - 10/28/12 at 1:26am
post #66 of 205
The C414 uses condenser elements whereas the K1000 utilizes dynamic moving coil transducers
post #67 of 205
Quote:
Originally Posted by arnaud View Post

Jpelg, indeed it is strikingly similar to the back of the k1000 driver!
So, Mike (mkubota1) brought his k1000 along on the trip to the Fujiya Avic fall headphone festival in tokyo this week end (many thanks for this mike!!). That was the first time I could have a proper listen and it was an interesting experience. The lack of pads and natural crossfeed makes for a rather special experience, quite enjoyable. Only thing is that you feel there's a speaker right there in front of your ears so this does not quite diseappear like a 009 does for me. I wonder if this is due due spurious vibration of the frame (the whole thing is vibrating significantly with the driver), else strong directivity of the essentially unbaffled driver.
In terms of bass, it was definitely clean but lacking (a bit or not so much) depending on the record. Mike said it's a late production model, hence bass lite. I guess I could get used to it if I only listened to that rig. More realistically, I would probably grow frustrated with the lack of bass quantity / extension. One thing I noticed is the presence of a passive circuit in line with the driver. There's an inductance and a surface mount resistance it seems. High pass filter to prevent the driver to out of bounds at its resonance frequency maybe?
I could not notice any obvious midrange coloration but probably it would more extensive test to find out. Overall, it's not like I want one badly but at least this has convinced me I need to carry through my investigation of personal HRTF equalization as discussed in the realiser thread. Mike actually showed me tiny mics that fit at the entrance of the ear canal and may do a fine job to give a taste of the realiser.

Nice that you finally got the possibility to audition K1K.

 

A very good description of K1K based on your limited exposure to it - congrats! 

 

I would appreciate you posting the link to the realiser thread. Thank you in advance.

 

In one of our ex-republics of former Yugoslavia, there is a saying that roughly translates to : "The first litter of cats is to be thrown away" . The second litter is usually healthier, prettier, etc . Since I now have contact of two of the original designers, I will try to persuade all Three Musketeers to produce

that second litter, so to speak.  Original K1K does not possibly do justice to the potential of the design - particularly frame with its numerous failings was, as admitted by the designer, "designed" more as an afterhought than accountig for the fact K1K is not headphone at all, but an ear speaker in true  meaning of the word. There are many more gremlins lurking in original K1K, each and every one of them  being detrimental to the final sound quality. That is not to say the designers did not do supreme job with it - in aircraft design it is customary to build new airframe around proven engine or vice versa, designs that from the onset are completely new are likely to be pleagued with teething troubles well into the actual service period and are unlikely to be made really good and reliable within time allowed for the finishing of the prototype. AKG K1000 was completely new design and except

resemblance/similarity with the said mike nothing was available off the shelf, everything had to be created anew. And it was not  "a new plane, helicopter or any known category of heavier than air vehicle" - it was, and still is, in a category all of its own.

 

AKG K1000 is what I describe as a typical "semi product". That is my description for designs that, ( for either reason, spanning from inavailability of  materials/technology to do justice to the potential of the design/concept  at the time of origin - through some misunderstanding on the part of the original designers - all the way to the cost cutting measures that crippled the performance of the commercially available product), did not live up to their full, or nearly so, potential. By no means should be this "semi product" designation be viewed as negative - on the contrary , I always give it only to the pinnacle designs/concepts I see to have far greater potential than displayed by the actually commercially available product. Considering that K1000 was born on private initiative and only after succesful prototype was produced sanctioned officially by the AKG, the achievements of The Three Musketeers, with all the gremlins included, is still way beyond and above the call of duty. As they say in professional cycling : Chapeau !

post #68 of 205
Quote:
Originally Posted by analogsurviver View Post

A very good description of K1K based on your limited exposure to it - congrats! 

 

I would appreciate you posting the link to the realiser thread. Thank you in advance.

 

Thanks for the feedback. I've edited the post with direct link to one of the posts in the realiser thread.

 

For the K2000, I'd say bring it on!

post #69 of 205
Quote:
Originally Posted by arnaud View Post

 

Thanks for the feedback. I've edited the post with direct link to one of the posts in the realiser thread.

 

For the K2000, I'd say bring it on!

Thank you for the answer and the link. Will study it soon.

 

So, today we had the first snow. Good sign - I did throw the snowball from the top of the hill, to the particular valley in Austria - a very lenghty and detailed PM sent to Heinz,

 

If that does not bring on the K1000 II or K2000 - nothing will ( short of a healthly financier ). Keep fingers crossed !

post #70 of 205

Well as  hrklg01 one of the designers said, initially it was not an officially recognised or funded AKG project, more some guys messing around with their ideas in the lab.  Once they had official backing there would be constraints on the funding to get to the finished product.  Also sales volumes, selling prices and dealers margins would have been estimated to make it profitable so its like developing any commercial product difficult decisions had to me made in order for it to be produced at all.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by analogsurviver View Post

AKG K1000 is what I describe as a typical "semi product". That is my description for designs that, ( for either reason, spanning from inavailability of  materials/technology to do justice to the potential of the design/concept  at the time of origin - through some misunderstanding on the part of the original designers - all the way to the cost cutting measures that crippled the performance of the commercially available product), did not live up to their full, or nearly so, potential. By no means should be this "semi product" designation be viewed as negative - on the contrary , I always give it only to the pinnacle designs/concepts I see to have far greater potential than displayed by the actually commercially available product. Considering that K1000 was born on private initiative and only after succesful prototype was produced sanctioned officially by the AKG, the achievements of The Three Musketeers, with all the gremlins included, is still way beyond and above the call of duty. As they say in professional cycling : Chapeau !

post #71 of 205
Quote:
Originally Posted by complin View Post

Well as  hrklg01 one of the designers said, initially it was not an officially recognised or funded AKG project, more some guys messing around with their ideas in the lab.  Once they had official backing there would be constraints on the funding to get to the finished product.  Also sales volumes, selling prices and dealers margins would have been estimated to make it profitable so its like developing any commercial product difficult decisions had to me made in order for it to be produced at all.

 

What you say would holds true in about any scenario, K 1000 included. By some numerous but unrelated connections and people which are not pure coincidence  I know some behind the scene  facts which will only be revealed with the permission of the persons involved.  K1000 is quite different  animal, its requirements for frame structure differ in major ways from that for any of the more conventional headphones that use ear pads of any description. If that was understood then it would result in different design of  the frame for sure. By his own admission of hrklg01, frame was designed in a hurry, with not too much attention paid to it.The cost of the tooling, production and everything that follows in order to make it viable commercial product would  for all practical reasons be the same. Bearing in mind the novelty of everything connected with K1000, this error is a very minor one - yet prevents K1000 to display its true potential. In a fierce competition, despite being superiour by design, a minor fault in execution can cause enough demage for the by design inferiour but executed to perfection designs to sound better in the end. IIRC, you said K1000 can be quite bright in the Stax unwanted thread - it is the consequence of the "frame", much more than anything else - and I could go on and on just what else is wrong and which consequences in sound does this frame cause. hrlg01 himself confirmed that for hearing audible defects of K1000 you must not listen to them on your own head - played at volume normally used for listening, defects are clearly audible across the (quiet) room, either on other person's head or supported on a stand relatively free from any nearby flat surfaces. Arnaud did a very good observation/review of the K1000, despite the very limited time it was available to him.

post #72 of 205
Hi guys!
I follow this forum by a few years, I've got two K1000 with different box color (one black and one bright).
As many of you I had some problems with the headphones at low frequencies finding anomalous vibrations. Doing some research, I discover that the assistance for AKG products is provided by Harman Kardon Italy, so I contacted them and they told me that at today, AKG Vienna provides assistance for K1000 (through them).
They replace all of headphone components, in fact to my k1000 they made:
 
 
  • replacement of right audible grid
  • replacement dumping disk
  • replacement right audible driver
  • test and check of frequency response in acoustic room.

 

 
The repair could be expensive, according to the kind of problems, but is an extraordinary thing that at today, after 30years pays assistance to the k1000, bringing it to excellent conditions comparable to new.
 
P.S. if anyone could be interest to a k1000, I sell one of my k1000
http://www.head-fi.org/t/613585/akg-k1000-refurbished-by-manufacturer#post_8443816
post #73 of 205

Hello to all!

Thank you very much for the lot and great comments as well for the private messages...

as previously I try to comment in the same order as I received the messages before:

Many thanks that you appointed me to became a member to the Headphone Designers' Hall of Fame.... The honor would be better given to Helmut Ryback - one of the 3 K1000 "Musketiers" as he was the main head for headphone design in the previous AKG years. My job concentrated my focus to microphones and the K1000 driver was a "finger play" for me only sharp before stopping my job... Ok, may sound arrogant, but the technology for dynamic microphone drivers was much more difficult at this times.

AKG never launched true electrostatic headphones. At least till the end of 1989 this was because of the fact, that the effective moving mass of an electrostatic driver is quite high! I know, this sound unbelievable for many members of this forum. But it's a physical fact. This is explained in simple words, because of the "acoustically added mass" due to the front grid holes of the driver and the air cavity between the membrane and the grid. When calculating the total moving mass = membrane + air within the holes and cavities, it was much more than the moving mass of the K1000 driver.

However, todays technologies might chance this view and I would be happy to discuss this point with experts.... because also for an improved "K2000" driver I have enough new ideas based on latest technologies.

Yea! The C414 microphone was really an input for the K1000 frame design.... a little input from my job before ;-). And yes, I know it was not ideal designed! Sorry for that!... :-)

To the "feeling" that there's a speaker right in front of the ears...: Yes I know - it's true and a drawback of this specific dynamic speaker design. What you feel is the true mechanical moving mass. And this is precisely the main point what I would change with a new design approach based on newest technologies....

The passive electric filter inside the K1000 is to reduce the natural level increase in the area of 3k-10kKz because of the close distance to the ear. May be not very elegant, but effective in term of cost... Of course a DSP active filter could do this job better without phase change... But there would be the need of special amplifiers for the whole product - like the Stax electrostatic systems....

I personally do not believe that any directivity would happen an acoustic influence such close to the ear. But may be any of you can explain so that I understand it.

Again to the frame and grid of the K1000...: I know, it's very heavy designed, but this was not only by excident, it was due to the moving mass. You need a reasonable ratio between moving mass and static mass, so that you do not feel too much from the movements.... As this is quite individual depending, the quotes for the K1000 are also quite different. However, to my understanding the righ next appraoch would be to minimize the moving mass and in the same time the static mass of the frame and grid... Factors of 5 would be reasonable this days...

K1000 a "semi product": All your comments are right more or less. But the main development phase of the K1000 was really not limited to any cost constraints... it was not born on "private initiative" - may be I did not discribe the design phase with correct words due to the fact that english is not my MOTHER TONGUE... The later design phase of the basket and all the mechanical things arround was in quite a hurry ..... believe!

The fact that AKG repair the K1000 still after this long time period makes me as Austrian proud!

"May be that I will bring them my own prototype to repair... may be they find that it offer too much bass   ;-))  "

BR heinz

post #74 of 205

I have one question for Mr. Constructor. I'm K1000 owner since many years and I replaced them both drivers and even cable (for Entreq Constantin). And from years I still have the same problem. Right driver time to time gets distortions with high grand piano frequencies. For example with disks from the box I added to this post. I've tried this disks with many headphones, including Orpheus, SR-Omega and Sony R-10, and there was no any distortions. Also sometimes they not occurs with K1000. But sometimes they are, and even sometimes in permanent way. It is difficult to me to describe this distortions in English. What can I say, it is some high frequency vibration, like fly buzz. I must add, that I use K1000 without ear side grids. And now I don't know if K1000 are so good and shows something invisible for other headphones, or they are weak and works wrong in some situations.  

 

 

 

700

post #75 of 205
Quote:
Originally Posted by Piotr Ryka View Post

I have one question for Mr. Constructor. I'm K1000 owner since many years and I replaced them both drivers and even cable (for Entreq Constantin). And from years I still have the same problem. Right driver time to time gets distortions with high grand piano frequencies. For example with disks from the box I added to this post. I've tried this disks with many headphones, including Orpheus, SR-Omega and Sony R-10, and there was no any distortions. Also sometimes they not occurs with K1000. But sometimes they are, and even sometimes in permanent way. It is difficult to me to describe this distortions in English. What can I say, it is some high frequency vibration, like fly buzz. I must add, that I use K1000 without ear side grids. And now I don't know if K1000 are so good and shows something invisible for other headphones, or they are weak and works wrong in some situations.  

 

   Isn't it the same cause as that of the already discussed bass rattle? If you haven't read about it yet, it is caused by the disintegration of a foam disc that fulfills a damping duty. Just a thought...

   Also, make sure all the screws are tight. I have experienced a similar phenomenon a few years ago and it was caused by a loose screw, one of the four that help fix the leather headband against the plastic parts that the temple pads are attached to. You must "open the wings" of the k1000 to be able to see the screws.
 

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