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Akg K-702 - Amped vs Unamped : Can't hear much of a difference? - Page 4

post #46 of 86

specs.jpg

 

 

Not sure if I am understanding that headphone rating correctly, but 6.5mW seams really really unusually tiny, and if that is the case then something fishy is indeed happening not current related.  Now I'm just curious whats going on.

 

post #47 of 86

6.5 mW into 8 ohms, am I reading that right? blink.gif

 

That's only 0.23 Vrms, half of what a Sansa Clip+ can manage and assuming low output impedance only good for about 92 dB (maybe) of volume from the K701. That is not well driven at all. Now, if it had a monstrous output impedance that would explain the terrible power output with low impedance loads. It's also possible from the way they word it that it can do more than that but will be over 0.01% THD if it does. Not too helpful overall, like I expected.

post #48 of 86

I think that is misleading, which sucks I'm really hoping to find out what the deal is, even if I'm wrong and it is distortion it would help if we know for recommending which amps would sound good with the 701's.  1/4 volume on the amp is approaching uncomfortably loud with the 701's and 1/3 is as high as I dare to go with them attached.

post #49 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by Digital-Pride View Post



Head Injury, powerful headphone amps like Hifiman's EF-5 or Burson's HA-160, are not just about power output, but about the absolute control these amp exert over said headphone drivers that result in things like improved detail extraction, sound stage depth and imaging, bass extension and control and overall sound refinement.  It's headphone amps like these that enable the higher end headphones to really show what they're capable of.  Yes, the power output is a bit much compared to what is actually needed to comfortably drive them to a listening level, but the resulting sonic goodness is absolutely worth it.

 

Synergy is something I'm still learning about myself, though I would say there are headphone amps out that work well with almost any headphone out there.


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by RexAeterna View Post


i don't mean to be ignorant but what you said is basically just marketing talk. more power has nothing to do with imaging or soundstage depth. maybe it's cause they have a good topology design is reason behind their popularity but then again it can be too much praise which usually ends up as exaggeration from over hyping and so forth. not saying it's true but it's just my opinion from observation.


Power does matter, especially when it comes to headroom and dynamic range. Overall precision of the sound is also power dependable. Transients will certainly sound different with great power in reserves.

 

Problem is with current trend in audio industry and mastering techniques. Literally everything today, besides classical music, is tragically mastered. You can't appreciate great dynamic capabilities of the amp and gear if you don't listen to classical music. It's a sad story but that's the only genre, and little bit from jazz, in which you can see whats today's audio equipment is capable of. This hobby of ours really makes no sense with rock, pop, electronic ets...of today.

 

post #50 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by sexiewasd View Post

My Q701's sound really cheap and pretty much worthless through everything I own except my Yamaha stereo amplifier, even when matching the volume, and I'm not saying that because it's big and shiny, or because I paid a lot for it, because well it's scratched up, missing a knob and it was free.  Without the amp there is very little bass at all, and drum hits sound weak and dull, not even a bit snappy, there is no crispness to the sound.  When I add in the amp it is fixed, that is not distortion doing that.  If your amp doesn't make a difference then your source already has a decent amp, or you've been ripped off.

 

Maybe it's because the Yamaha's headphone is run from the speaker outputs(don't know the resistor values used)?  My Pioneer reciever can drive them to uncomfortably loud, but it still doesn't help it sound any better than being driven directly from my sound card.

 

Oh please. Your Q701's probably sound cheap and worthless because they are overpriced K 701's. 
 

 

post #51 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dexon View Post
Problem is with current trend in audio industry and mastering techniques. Literally everything today, besides classical music, is tragically mastered.

 

 

Bob Katz's Honor Roll of Dynamic Recordings for non-classical examples of well recorded and mastered CDs.
 

 

post #52 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by Satellite_6 View Post

 

Oh please. Your Q701's probably sound cheap and worthless because they are overpriced K 701's. 
 

 



Hey now, the Q701 are about the same price as the K701/2 here in the states at least.

post #53 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by Satellite_6 View Post

 

Oh please. Your Q701's probably sound cheap and worthless because they are overpriced K 701's. 
 

 


So you think that the k701's are "cheap and worthless"?  Did you miss the part where they sound truly fantastic with the stereo amp, or are you just trolling, because that is really how you come off sounding.

 

post #54 of 86
Thread Starter 

Hey all, it's me again, the op :)

 

What's up with the notifications from head-fi? I got an email just then for this thread, and realized that email is LATE on the ball, many replies...nvm I am here now, and it looks like I need to do some talking very_evil_smiley.gif

 

Well since the first set of AB tests I have done some blind testing with my little brother to help set up the hp&amp, after I had level matched the 2 outputs. No difference. Since then I have packed away the Meier Arietta, and stayed with the built-in hp amp of the Profire 610. I'd like to point out that I purchased the Corda Arietta specifically to power the AKG K-702's, and according to the specs they should do it perfectly, which they did. This proves that there is no difference in sound between a badly driven AKG K-70X and a correctly driven pair (I won't go so far as to say unamplified, because surely there are amp sources that are pure ****, like your laptops). Perhaps I'll give it to a friend who needs the amplification later.

 

I'd like to take this chance to stress that I do not appreciate amplifiers that 'color' the music - though it may sound 'nicer', it is not the original intention of the engineer, and rather like placing a pleasurable eq over the music (with some amps it IS an eq curve). An amplifier should do what it says it does, amplify the signal so that you can hear it audibly, and not through a nice sparkly exotic curtain. After all these years of technological advance in order to be enable us ordinary consumers to have transparent and reliable signal paths, you would go back to coloring your sound with distortion and eq curves? Not only that, but shelling out more $ for backwards technology??? Sure, 40 years ago you couldn't design your equipment to deliberately add distortion, but then again, you had no choice. Everything had distortion. Why go backwards when you should be moving forwards?

 

If you, like some in this thread and many audiophiles, like changing your sound through an amplifier, I may be enclined to judge you as an audiophool. I believe this to be a stupid trend among music lovers like you, bolstered by uninformed reviews/comments on the internet on forums such as this, by people who don't understand the purpose of equipment and the value of their $. This is not helped by an entire industry being founded upon your perception of their products. In fact, this very test I just did was because of this mysterious 'potential' everyone keeps yappin on about in every thread I find about the K70X. Wake up guys, there is none, be specific about the difference or go home. You say you hear a difference but you never elaborate. And then you all say different things, such as the ones I talked about in an earlier post, eg. widened soundstage (how is this even possible, btw I also did a small test with a sweeping audiosource from hard left to hard right, looped, and then realized the impossibility of widening occuring), tighter bass, tamed highs, a 'smoother' mid-high, etc.

 

If you need the power, go ahead, but remember the amplifier should always only amplify, transparently.

 

If you want a different sound, don't spend the money on expensive amps for a diminishing/nonexistent return - buy another beautiful headphone. Or donate it :) god knows audiophiles are the world's worst judges in regards to value for their money, big foolish wasters. As I look down the page of this subforum I feel very sad.

 

One more thing before I'm done, I want to speak about the power of placebo and its place in this industry. I'm sure I can do it quite well, but I think these guys can do it more justice :)

 

 

 

smily_headphones1.gif

 

 

 

 

 

 

 


Edited by senjy - 11/3/11 at 4:00pm
post #55 of 86
Thread Starter 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Digital-Pride View Post



Head Injury, powerful headphone amps like Hifiman's EF-5 or Burson's HA-160, are not just about power output, but about the absolute control these amp exert over said headphone drivers that result in things like improved detail extraction, sound stage depth and imaging, bass extension and control and overall sound refinement.  It's headphone amps like these that enable the higher end headphones to really show what they're capable of.  Yes, the power output is a bit much compared to what is actually needed to comfortably drive them to a listening level, but the resulting sonic goodness is absolutely worth it.

 

Synergy is something I'm still learning about myself, though I would say there are headphone amps out that work well with almost any headphone out there.

 

It is comments like this all over every thread on the internet. Listen to me. In simple terms, your headphone creates a stereo image by playing an instrument louder in one ear than the other, or at the furthest extreme (hardpanned), only in one ear. How in the freaking hell can you improve your sound stage depth, imaging, etc. when all it is volume controls for L&R. The amplifier is not going to physically push those drivers further away from your ear. Where do you even hear these things from?

 

Most likely from other uninformed people, the greedy headphone amp company and your own placebo. These people are lieing to you so that you will buy.

 


Edited by senjy - 11/3/11 at 4:14pm
post #56 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by senjy View Post

 

It is comments like this all over every thread on the internet. Listen to me. In simple terms, your headphone creates a stereo image by playing an instrument louder in one ear than the other, or at the furthest extreme (hardpanned), only in one ear. How in the freaking hell can you improve your sound stage depth, imaging, etc. when all it is volume controls for L&R. The amplifier is not going to physically push those drivers further away from your ear. Where do you even hear these things from?

 

Most likely from other uninformed people, the greedy headphone amp company and your own placebo.


Don't be so hasty to jump to conclusions. Low channel separation in an amp (that is, when the electrical signal from one channel interferes and bleeds into the other channel) can affect sound stage. I don't know the specific effects, but it's easy enough to imagine right? It's like crossfeed without any delay and no control over specific frequencies. I expect it would make a sound stage smaller, and imaging less accurate.

 

The caveat, though, is that almost all amps have channel separation too high to worry about. Only certain designs, like bad 3-channel ones, or otherwise terrible amps, will have audible crosstalk.

 

And while it may not affect sound stage specifically, I imagine high levels of distortion can obscure psychoacoustic cues in the recording that give us accurate imaging.


Edited by Head Injury - 11/3/11 at 4:19pm
post #57 of 86

Amazing video

post #58 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by Head Injury View Post

 

And while it may not affect sound stage specifically, I imagine high levels of distortion can obscure psychoacoustic cues in the recording that give us accurate imaging.


Yes, and fine detail extraction, as well as precise timing (phase coherency), also add to soundstage, imaging, and timbre.

 

Senjy is in essence correct, but is pushing it too far. Not all amplifiers are created equal.  No, this is not a justification for mega-buck amps.  But with a good source and revealing transducers there is a sound difference between a basic amp and a truly good one.

 

post #59 of 86

Fine detail extraction is affected by what in an amp? The only thing I can think of is distortion. How else will an amp be more detailed?

post #60 of 86
Thread Starter 

Oh of course crossfeed or a similar effect (whether intentional or from a bad amp) will affect the soundstage, but that should never be built straight into an amp without the choice...and if it is a bad amp, well I am not comparing that.  As I have stated before, you are going to hear a difference between ur laptop and an amp. Same deal with a bad amp..

 

I was talking about (in my most recent post) the difference between low-end amps and 'mega buck amps', as Wapiti puts it. Of course, this has strayed beyond my simple starting point. Let's get back to that and not discuss amps that cost a lot of $, even though I did mention them at length in my last post. I am sorry if anyone is offended, but too bad, they are not worth any price you put on them. All amps should be transparent, but that is my opinion and obviously many of you love your 'colored' amps. Head Injury obviously knows a lot more about this than I do though so ask him/her if you want to know anything not this stupid fool Senjy cool.gif.

 

My starting point, and it is all I want people to take away from this thread, is that when I listen to my AKG K702's from my ProFire 610's amp, and then when I listen to my AKG K702's from my Meier Audio Corda Arietta, there is no difference.

 

http://www.m-audio.com/products/en_us/ProFire610.html

 

Shall we agree that this cannot drive the AKG K702's 'properly', or to their mysterious full 'potential', as many on these forums like to call it?

Shall we agree that the Meier Audio Corda Arietta can?

 

Then why can I hear no difference? Isn't this an issue, since so many people like to say there is a potential when driven correctly? That is all I am getting at.

 

smily_headphones1.gif

 

 

 

 

     Oh and, we can talk till the cows come home, but the only way you can hear for yourself the difference in soundstage, is by testing it.

Here's a stereo sweeping sine wave (that I just quickly made) that travels from L-R twice. Play it looping through your favourite amp, eyes closed, and really get a feel for it, hear when it ends in one ear and starts moving again. Then listen to it through another source. This way you'll know for sure what your favourite amp/other equipment is doing to your headphone's soundstage. basshead.gif

 

http://www.mediafire.com/?s45laa8crwb6e1e

 

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