Do "I" really need a headphone amp? - Page 3

Originally Posted by Tilpo 


While I agree on most parts, I think 'stomp' is a bit of an exaggeration. Buying better amps will only improve sound marginally, and it's especially the music and the headphones that make the difference.
I must admit that I have little real life experience with high-end amplifiers. However I'll be building a Beta22 soon (parts just got shipped, actually), which is generally considered a high-end 'transparent' amplifier. I.e. a 'wire with gain'.
I'll be doing extensive A/B'ing once it's done, and if I can get some way to match the volumes I might be doing ABX as well.
My hypothesis is that there will be hardly any difference between different solid state amps, but the only way to really know is to find out yourself. That has been my observation so far, and I honestly doubt whether it will be different for high-end amps.
In any case, getting into high-end amplifiers is something you should only start doing when you are bit better acquainted with this hobby. It's better to start with a beginner amp such as the excellent FiiO E9 and work your way up from there, than to spend $1k on an amplifier and come to the conclusion that it does not really justify its price.

Originally Posted by aaronnt1 

Well I got the Fiio E9 and after an initial few hours the truth is there is absolutely no difference at all in sound quality over just using the RME 9632. If there is any difference it is so slight as to be imperceptible to my ears. It seems the only benefit is that there is a lot more power should I ever need it but to be honest, the RME already has enough of that.

 

To be fair, the great advice on this forum did say that the Fiio E9 is really very neutral and won't colour the sound which is actually what I want since my PC set up is for accurate analytical audio production and representation not EQ'd audio for listening pleasure, but I was still expecting a somehow better / accurate sound but it's simply not there... I may keep the Fiio anyhow in case there ever is a need for more power.

 

 

Originally Posted by Coresel 

I'm still learning, please bare with me.

 

How do amps, pre-amps and dacs work? What's their purpose. I'm still trying to learn the basics.

I figure replying to a related thread is better than making a new one.

 

I'm almost in the same boat as aaronnt1.

I just bought an HD 558. I'm also trying to decide whether or not I need an amp.

 

If I was to get:

http://www.amazon.com/FiiO-Desktop-Headphone-Amplifier-Dock/dp/B004M172FY

Would I use a cable like, http://www.cablesdirect.com/prodimages/CC399AC_LR.jpg to my computer, then plug my HD 558s in the front?

What does the line in and pre-output do?

 

How about the Little Dot MK III
http://www.littledot.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=815

 

What does the line in and pre-output do?

Originally Posted by Tilpo 


Pre-amp and amp are pretty much interchangeable in the world of headphones, although a pre-amp usually suggest it's meant to be connected to a power amp. I.e. an amp that has a very large gain and is used to power full sized speakers.
An amplifier does exactly what the name suggests; it amplifies an (audio) signal. An audio signal is almost a wave with a constantly changing voltage.
An amplifier essentially 'multiplies' the input voltage by a set gain factor. This gain factor is usually between 5-10x.
In short, all an amplifier does is make it louder. If you're interested it does this by a factor of 20*log(gain) dB. For a gain of 8x this is 18dB, for one of 10x it's 20dB. This is because volume is dependent on power and power is proportional to the square of voltage.
A DAC is a device that converts a digital signal of 1's and 0's into an analog one of varying voltage. DAC literally means 'digital to analogue converter'. The opposite is an ADC which takes an analogue signal and converts it to a digital one.
How they exactly do this is a bit complicated to explain but in short it does this by using an algorithm that approximates the correct sine wave the digital signal attempts to describe.
Without an amplifier and without a DAC there is no music. All digital music playing devices (computers, iPods, CD-players, etc.) have both an amplifier and a DAC built in. However these are usually not of very high quality in the cases of computers and portable music players. For this reason us audiophiles tend to use external DAC's and amps to increase the sound quality.
One of the biggest problems of the built-in amplifiers of many devices is the fact that they do not provide enough power to drive the load (heapdhones or speakers) effectively. In minor cases this is perceived as a lack in treble and bass, or in bad cases as a lack of volume.
A second good reason why we buy amps and DAC's is an increase in sound quality. Bad amplifiers and DAC's will introduce problems such as harmonic distortion, crosstalk, channel imbalance, high output impedance or background noise. These might not always be noticeable unless you hear the same headphones from a rig that does not have these problems. As you have more and more expensive amps the sound quality only improves marginally, and therefore my advice is to not worry too much about DAC's and amps. Once you are confident that you have a decent one there is no real need to upgrade unless you feel you are missing out on something.
A third less good reason to buy amps and DAC's is a change in sound signature. Sound signature means the effect a component has on the overall sound. A good example is the feeling of warmth that some tube amplifiers add. Some people like this, and buy components specifically for the reason to change the sound, rather than to increase sound quality. Don't go this route unless you are absolutely sure that it's worth the money. This is because amplifiers (and DAC's) provide an expensive way to change the sound signature. Learning to equalize is in my opinion a better and cheaper method, but as with everything in audio: to each their own.
I hope this explanation was clear. If you feel you have some more questions feel free to ask.
Now to answer your other questions: Line-in is the analogue input of the amplifier. This is connected to the output of an e.g. CD player, computer, iPod. You wouldn't need that cable you suggested to use the FiiO with a computer. You need a 3.5mm male-male cable, such as this one.
Pre-output is not really a term as far as I know, but in this case it probably means the output of the amplifier WITH volume control.
The line-out is usually the output of the amplifier without volume control, i.e. at a fixed volume. You use this if you want to use the FiiO as a pre-amplifier and connect it to a power amplifier.
As far as FiiO E9 vs. LD MKII goes: I think the E9 is a better starter. The Little Dot would be a bit overkill for the HD 558, and additionally I'm not a big fan of budget tube amps.
And then whether or not you actually need an amplifier: If you drive it directly from your computer then an amplifier would not be a bad idea at all. Motherboards usually have a mediocre sound quality, often even having quite loud background noise. I would go with the FiiO E7 though, that one has a built in DAC too. The DAC of your motherboard will probably not be that good either, and the E7 should still have plenty power to drive the HD 558.
The reason I suggested the E9 for the OP instead of the E7 is the fact that his soundcard already has a decent DAC, and also because the HD 650 needs more power than the E7 can handle. The HD 558 will be fine out of an E7.

Originally Posted by Tilpo 


Pre-amp and amp are pretty much interchangeable in the world of headphones, although a pre-amp usually suggest it's meant to be connected to a power amp. I.e. an amp that has a very large gain and is used to power full sized speakers.
An amplifier does exactly what the name suggests; it amplifies an (audio) signal. An audio signal is almost a wave with a constantly changing voltage.
An amplifier essentially 'multiplies' the input voltage by a set gain factor. This gain factor is usually between 5-10x.
In short, all an amplifier does is make it louder. If you're interested it does this by a factor of 20*log(gain) dB. For a gain of 8x this is 18dB, for one of 10x it's 20dB. This is because volume is dependent on power and power is proportional to the square of voltage.
A DAC is a device that converts a digital signal of 1's and 0's into an analog one of varying voltage. DAC literally means 'digital to analogue converter'. The opposite is an ADC which takes an analogue signal and converts it to a digital one.
How they exactly do this is a bit complicated to explain but in short it does this by using an algorithm that approximates the correct sine wave the digital signal attempts to describe.
Without an amplifier and without a DAC there is no music. All digital music playing devices (computers, iPods, CD-players, etc.) have both an amplifier and a DAC built in. However these are usually not of very high quality in the cases of computers and portable music players. For this reason us audiophiles tend to use external DAC's and amps to increase the sound quality.
One of the biggest problems of the built-in amplifiers of many devices is the fact that they do not provide enough power to drive the load (heapdhones or speakers) effectively. In minor cases this is perceived as a lack in treble and bass, or in bad cases as a lack of volume.
A second good reason why we buy amps and DAC's is an increase in sound quality. Bad amplifiers and DAC's will introduce problems such as harmonic distortion, crosstalk, channel imbalance, high output impedance or background noise. These might not always be noticeable unless you hear the same headphones from a rig that does not have these problems. As you have more and more expensive amps the sound quality only improves marginally, and therefore my advice is to not worry too much about DAC's and amps. Once you are confident that you have a decent one there is no real need to upgrade unless you feel you are missing out on something.
A third less good reason to buy amps and DAC's is a change in sound signature. Sound signature means the effect a component has on the overall sound. A good example is the feeling of warmth that some tube amplifiers add. Some people like this, and buy components specifically for the reason to change the sound, rather than to increase sound quality. Don't go this route unless you are absolutely sure that it's worth the money. This is because amplifiers (and DAC's) provide an expensive way to change the sound signature. Learning to equalize is in my opinion a better and cheaper method, but as with everything in audio: to each their own.
I hope this explanation was clear. If you feel you have some more questions feel free to ask.
Now to answer your other questions: Line-in is the analogue input of the amplifier. This is connected to the output of an e.g. CD player, computer, iPod. You wouldn't need that cable you suggested to use the FiiO with a computer. You need a 3.5mm male-male cable, such as this one.
Pre-output is not really a term as far as I know, but in this case it probably means the output of the amplifier WITH volume control.
The line-out is usually the output of the amplifier without volume control, i.e. at a fixed volume. You use this if you want to use the FiiO as a pre-amplifier and connect it to a power amplifier.
As far as FiiO E9 vs. LD MKII goes: I think the E9 is a better starter. The Little Dot would be a bit overkill for the HD 558, and additionally I'm not a big fan of budget tube amps.
And then whether or not you actually need an amplifier: If you drive it directly from your computer then an amplifier would not be a bad idea at all. Motherboards usually have a mediocre sound quality, often even having quite loud background noise. I would go with the FiiO E7 though, that one has a built in DAC too. The DAC of your motherboard will probably not be that good either, and the E7 should still have plenty power to drive the HD 558.
The reason I suggested the E9 for the OP instead of the E7 is the fact that his soundcard already has a decent DAC, and also because the HD 650 needs more power than the E7 can handle. The HD 558 will be fine out of an E7.bnh

Originally Posted by liamstrain 

The E7, will use the computers USB to pull out the sound data, and bypass your soundcard/dac. 

 

If you are using the headphone out, into the E7, then you are correct - it's already been processed by your soundcard. 

 

The E9 builds a more capable amplifier than the E7's into the system. So, for portable use, you use the E7 as both dac and amp... for desktop use, the e7 is the dac, and the e9 is the amp. 

So my soundcard is a DAC? Some soundcards have a higher sample rate, is that the quality of the analog signal after it converts it?

If my sound card already is a DAC, the E7's DAC wont do anything, right? or will it convert it again? or if I use it as USB it will act as its own soundcard.

I was looking at this combo, the E9 and E7
What are the benefits of this? Both the E9 and E7 are amps, does do improve the quality when used together?

Originally Posted by Tilpo 
You also mentioned that you already have a soundcard. Could you tell me what soundcard? If the soundcard's DAC is good enough then there is no immediate reason to buy a better DAC.

Originally Posted by Coresel 

 

Onboard soundcard
http://www.asus.com/Motherboards/Intel_Socket_1155/P8P67_EVO/
 

I'm using Logitech z506 speakers as a 5.1 speaker setup for movies, thats why I was looking at upgrading my soundcard. I heard creative labs was coming out with a new soundcard, does anyone have information on that?

 

Now that I've seen the E9/E7 combo, I want to use that for music.

I'd set the output on my audioplayer to the E9/E7 for music/gaming.