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post #16 of 32
Thread Starter 


So you seem to be quite knowledgable on the subject, in respect to ribbon tweeter speakers do you mean companies like Magnepan? I've also been considering their speakers but am currently undecided. In your opinion do you think that the Electrostat's would be unsuitable for a room of this size, if so are I will look into the speakers suggested above.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveBSC View Post


Electrostats are great with classical, but they will struggle with electronic music and rock. The MartinLogan subs are really awful, I would avoid those at all cost. There are some great subs out there, but with a dynamic driver speaker you generally don't need them. If you really feel you want a lot of bass though, the Paradigm Signature subs are probably the best way to go. Speakers that use the RAAL and Raven ribbon tweeters are capable of incredible detail. You really need to hear them. The Cirrus is possibly the best value of any speaker on the market right now. It's astonishing how good it is. It obviously can't match the sheer impact of a huge floor stander like the Rockport Ankaa. but from about 40Hz on up, its a rival for nearly anything.

 

A 22 x 9 room is a little tricky to work with, but it can be done. Just keep in mind that the speakers will need at least a few feet from the side and front walls, and you should be 1 to 1.5 times as far away from them as they are from each other.

 

room-omni.jpg

room-dipole.jpg

 

 



 

post #17 of 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by Swatcsi View Post

I was planning on purchasing either the quad 2905 or the Quad 2805's which are much smaller than the 2905's. On the side which is 22ft long I was going to put the Speakers about 6ft from the back wall and having the speakers around 1~2ft from the side wall's is that not enough as I can put my chair far enough to not be so close. Is that unreasonable? If so what would one suggest for a room of this size? Thanks!



I think you'll be fine.  The reason they need room from the back wall is because they are dipoles and the reflection of the backwave needs to hit your ears a certain amount of time after the direct wave from the front or things will sound wrong.  The advantage of dipoles is that you can put them really close to the side walls since their radiation pattern is a figure 8.  This should actually work well for your room.  I'd probably put them some 4 ft from the back wall, chair 7 ft from the speakers (11 ft from back wall), speakers 7 ft from each other (1 ft from each side wall), and then mess around with placement/spacing from there.  How high is the ceiling?  I'd persoanlly be looking at Quads and Soundlabs/Sanders instead of ML's if I wanted to go all out with electrostat speakers.

post #18 of 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by Swatcsi View Post


So you seem to be quite knowledgable on the subject, in respect to ribbon tweeter speakers do you mean companies like Magnepan? I've also been considering their speakers but am currently undecided. In your opinion do you think that the Electrostat's would be unsuitable for a room of this size, if so are I will look into the speakers suggested above.


Not exactly. Magnepan uses a ribbon tweeter in their high-end models, but it's a different type of design. The RAAL and the Raven are point-source, forward radiating designs that take the place of a traditional dome tweeter. There are some incredibly good dome tweeters like the Esostar, or the "Air-Circ" models, but when it comes to speed and detail, the best ribbon tweeters are unmatched. With your room, I would position the speakers on the short wall, two or three feet into the room, and then experiment with toe-in and distance from the side wall until you lock in what you feel sounds best. In this arrangement, I feel that a traditional speaker, especially one with a narrow baffle will work best.

post #19 of 32
Thread Starter 


I am now most likely going to go unbalanced as I can find much better equipement at a much better price point. For a DAC I'm thinking Meier StageDAC. For an amp either a Bryston or a McIntosh; Right now since I realized I need quite powerful amp's to run these speakers I'm thinking monoblocks, only problem is price, are there any monoblock pairs that retail for around $5000-6000, there's some flexibility in price, +/- $1000~2000 , as I've already picked my DAC and I'm going to run it straight into the amp until I find a good Preamp.

Quote:
Originally Posted by n3rdling View Post



I think you'll be fine.  The reason they need room from the back wall is because they are dipoles and the reflection of the backwave needs to hit your ears a certain amount of time after the direct wave from the front or things will sound wrong.  The advantage of dipoles is that you can put them really close to the side walls since their radiation pattern is a figure 8.  This should actually work well for your room.  I'd probably put them some 4 ft from the back wall, chair 7 ft from the speakers (11 ft from back wall), speakers 7 ft from each other (1 ft from each side wall), and then mess around with placement/spacing from there.  How high is the ceiling?  I'd persoanlly be looking at Quads and Soundlabs/Sanders instead of ML's if I wanted to go all out with electrostat speakers.

My ceileing's are 9 feet high, and I'm most likely going with Quads, due to price. Of the three which is the most highly regarded, as I can only audition the Quad's in my area. 
 

 



Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveBSC View Post


Not exactly. Magnepan uses a ribbon tweeter in their high-end models, but it's a different type of design. The RAAL and the Raven are point-source, forward radiating designs that take the place of a traditional dome tweeter. There are some incredibly good dome tweeters like the Esostar, or the "Air-Circ" models, but when it comes to speed and detail, the best ribbon tweeters are unmatched. With your room, I would position the speakers on the short wall, two or three feet into the room, and then experiment with toe-in and distance from the side wall until you lock in what you feel sounds best. In this arrangement, I feel that a traditional speaker, especially one with a narrow baffle will work best.



What companies in your opinion create the best RAAL/Raven tweeters?


Edited by Swatcsi - 10/25/11 at 8:23pm
post #20 of 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by Swatcsi View Post


I am now most likely going to go unbalanced as I can find much better equipement at a much better price point. For a DAC I'm thinking Meier StageDAC. For an amp either a Bryston or a McIntosh; Right now since I realized I need quite powerful amp's to run these speakers I'm thinking monoblocks, only problem is price, are there any monoblock pairs that retail for around $5000-6000, there's some flexibility in price, +/- $1000~2000 , as I've already picked my DAC and I'm going to run it straight into the amp until I find a good Preamp.

My ceileing's are 9 feet high, and I'm most likely going with Quads, due to price. Of the three which is the most highly regarded, as I can only audition the Quad's in my area. 
 

What companies in your opinion create the best RAAL/Raven tweeters?

 

If you're planning to use USB, I would suggest something other than the Meier. You'd really be crippling your performance there. If you want to buy new amps, the Parasound JC-1 monos cost around that much and are very nice. On the used market, that's enough to buy you a pair of Levinson 436 monos, which are truly exceptional amplifiers. It doesn't get much better than the 436, not unless you spend $20K+ just on amps.

 

By far the best speakers I've heard using the Raven are the Grand Reference series by NOLA, one of the very few companies I would put in the same league with Rockport, though their designs are startlingly different. Aside from the Vapor Cirrus monitor, the RAAL appears in the Salk Soundscape, and a few other speakers made by small companies. Up there in Canada you've got Verity Audio, who use their own custom ribbon tweeter in their Sarastro and Lohengrin speakers.

 

p833325562-4.jpg

post #21 of 32

You might want to PM the member Yikes on here as he's looking to sell his Parasound JC1 monoblocks which should drive any speaker you throw at them fantastically.

post #22 of 32
Thread Starter 

So I auditioned the Diamond series of Bowers & Wilkins, and Magnepan today. It was driven using a Mcintosh Amp, and I was listening to a CD I bought yesterday. My intial impression of the Magnepan's was these are truly amazing speaker's, though it just did not synergize with my CD, the B&Ws did a much better job, but still did not wow me. I'm going to go back tommorow with some familiar recordings, and test the martinlogans vs magnepan vs B&W and various other brand's. I'm also going to look for a dealer for the speakers you metioned and come back with result's. At this point I'm not ready to throw down my money unless something truly wow's me, and the only speaker to do that was a Harbeth I heard the other day, I'm defianately going to take your recommended options very seriously now. I have to pick my speaker and equipment soon, so it can be wired, to stay on schedule.

 

CD used: Justice - Audio, Video, Disco
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveBSC View Post

 

If you're planning to use USB, I would suggest something other than the Meier. You'd really be crippling your performance there. If you want to buy new amps, the Parasound JC-1 monos cost around that much and are very nice. On the used market, that's enough to buy you a pair of Levinson 436 monos, which are truly exceptional amplifiers. It doesn't get much better than the 436, not unless you spend $20K+ just on amps.

 

By far the best speakers I've heard using the Raven are the Grand Reference series by NOLA, one of the very few companies I would put in the same league with Rockport, though their designs are startlingly different. Aside from the Vapor Cirrus monitor, the RAAL appears in the Salk Soundscape, and a few other speakers made by small companies. Up there in Canada you've got Verity Audio, who use their own custom ribbon tweeter in their Sarastro and Lohengrin speakers.

 

p833325562-4.jpg



 

post #23 of 32

Just soe friendly advice, but I wouldn't buy just based on 'wow' factor.  I'd take my time and see which I enjoy listening to music on the most.

post #24 of 32
Thread Starter 

exactly, once iI take some of my familiar recording's I will have a much more vivid answer, only thing is I heard some $2000 Harbeth's that I just enjoyed much more, I guess wow is the wrong word, but the B&W just didn't do it for me, by tomorrow I'll know :)

post #25 of 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by Swatcsi View Post

So I auditioned the Diamond series of Bowers & Wilkins, and Magnepan today. It was driven using a Mcintosh Amp, and I was listening to a CD I bought yesterday. My intial impression of the Magnepan's was these are truly amazing speaker's, though it just did not synergize with my CD, the B&Ws did a much better job, but still did not wow me. I'm going to go back tommorow with some familiar recordings, and test the martinlogans vs magnepan vs B&W and various other brand's. I'm also going to look for a dealer for the speakers you metioned and come back with result's. At this point I'm not ready to throw down my money unless something truly wow's me, and the only speaker to do that was a Harbeth I heard the other day, I'm defianately going to take your recommended options very seriously now. I have to pick my speaker and equipment soon, so it can be wired, to stay on schedule.


Magnepans for me have never quite measured up to the hype. They are good at certain things, but I've always had issue with their frequency response, they never sound "of a piece" to me the way electrostats (but NOT the Martin Logan hybrids) or good dynamic speakers with well integrated crossovers do. B&W I'm also not a fan of. Their diamond tweeter is better than what they used to use (which was downright lousy) but I still don't think they compete with the best, or are worth the money. Further, I don't like Wilson or JM Lab speakers at all. The Avalons I've heard have been average, nothing special.

 

Of what I've heard in your general price range, here are what would get my highest recommendation:

 

Egglestonworks Rosa Signtare. I've only heard the standard Rosa, but based on what E-W did with the Andra III, I have to assume the Rosa Signature is that much better. It's basically a baby Andra. It doesn't have the Andra's thundering low end, but other than that the two are very similar. E-W speakers are incredibly musical - pretty much the opposite of the dry, clinical sound of a Wilson. I could listen to E-Ws all day, they're just so darn enjoyable. Not quite as revealing as a Rockport or NOLA Reference, but just fun, fun, fun.

 

EgglestonWorks%2BRosa%2BSignature%2B1.jpg

 

Rockport Mira. The Mira is the baby of Rockport's floorstanding range, and it does give some things up to its big brothers, but it's still an amazing performer for the money. More neutral than the E-Ws, the Mira excels at pretty much everything you can throw at it. The one thing that would concern me about the Mira or other Rockports in your space is the large side-firing woofers. I haven't heard them placed very close to side walls, there could be some excessive bass response issues there.

 

200707_mira.jpg

 

Dynaudio Confidence C2. The C2 has considerably less in the way of extreme low end than both the Rosa and the Mira. Basically it sounds like a giant two-way monitor, and I mean that in a good way. The imaging that the C2 (and big brother, the C4) are capable of is just incredible. They are among the few large floorstanding speakers that really capture what stand-mount monitors do so well. When I listened to my favorite soundstage reference track on the C4, I had to pick my jaw off the floor. I suspect that has much to do with the very narrow column, and Dynaudio's special baffle that they use to mount the drivers.

 

DYN_ConfidenceC2_maple.jpg

 

Nola Micro Grand Reference. The Micro Grand Reference gets you (other than bass response) most of what the big GR speakers have. Incredible, polished glass detail, *without* brightness, edginess, or harshness. $14,000/pr is a lot of money for a monitor that runs out of steam at around 40Hz, but its a heck of a monitor, and I'd put it up against any electrostat in a detail challege.

 

Stand-MGR-sm-1.jpg

 

 

post #26 of 32
Thread Starter 

Thanks so much for your help, I'm going to try and audition everything by the end of this week, tomorrow, I'm gonna go and listen to the electrostat's, just to get them out of my mind, I know they are not going to work with electronic/house music, but I have to make sure. Other than that I'm going to go and try and audition all the speaker's you have mentioned. I emailed NOVA to find a retailer, and there is no Dynaudio dealer up here in Canada, so that's not going to work, I was looking forward to its detail. I'm going to try and find a speaker that has an incredible amount transparency/detail. 

post #27 of 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by Swatcsi View Post

Thanks so much for your help, I'm going to try and audition everything by the end of this week, tomorrow, I'm gonna go and listen to the electrostat's, just to get them out of my mind, I know they are not going to work with electronic/house music, but I have to make sure. Other than that I'm going to go and try and audition all the speaker's you have mentioned. I emailed NOVA to find a retailer, and there is no Dynaudio dealer up here in Canada, so that's not going to work, I was looking forward to its detail. I'm going to try and find a speaker that has an incredible amount transparency/detail. 

 

Sure. I should probably also suggest that you listen to some speakers that use the Accuton ceramic drivers - Consensus, Tidal, Lumen White, Marten, Kharma, etc. I personally prefer musicality over the very last word in detail and transparency, which is why I love Egglestonworks speakers so much. Most of the ceramic based speakers are a bit cold for me to varying degrees, but there's no question that they offer amazing levels of transparency and detail.

 

ameablacksmall.jpg

 

post #28 of 32
Thread Starter 

So an update:

I went and auditioned 5 different speaker's, here are my impressions, in order of hearing them:

PMC FB: Really neutral, less than stellar bass extension though not bad, mid range and treble were great but not outstanding.

PSB Synchrony One: Very musical, good amount of detail, good treble and mid range, though a little fatiguing, not great for long listening sessions.

Bowers&Wilkins 802 Diamond: Very musical, with excellent bass response. detail was nice, but not as good as the PSB's, really nice treble, and midrange, still I feel as if I can find better.

MartinLogan Ethos: Amazing clarity of any speaker I've heard (this is my first time listening to an electrostatic speaker). Since this is a lower model, I noticed that the highs/mid range was good but not as good as I expected, nevertheless much better than there boxed speaker counterparts. Bass was awful, it bled into the music, very loose, I expect that to be fixed in the higher models.

Magnepan 3.7: At first I thought they were nothing special. I came back today, and they literally blew me away. Just a great allrounder, deep extended bass, great detail, and nice mids and highs, everytime I listen to a new speaker this will be my reference.

 

I'm going to go and listen to some Quad's, Harbeth's and various other brand's tomorrow and see what I like, but so far the Magnepan's are stellar, as well, I'm going to go back and give them another listen, just to make sure.

 

Songs Used (All Lossless):

Danger - 88:88

Daft Punk - Harder, Better, Faster, Stronger

Daft Punk - Around the World

Boys Noize - Oh!

Red Hot Chili Peppers - Snow (Hey Oh)

Red Hot Chili Peppers - Slow Cheetah

Boys Noize & Erol Alkan - Avalanche

 


Edited by Swatcsi - 10/27/11 at 4:20pm
post #29 of 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by Swatcsi View Post

MartinLogan Ethos: Amazing clarity of any speaker I've heard (this is my first time listening to an electrostatic speaker). Since this is a lower model, I noticed that the highs/mid range was good but not as good as I expected, nevertheless much better than there boxed speaker counterparts. Bass was awful, it bled into the music, very loose, I expect that to be fixed in the higher models.

Magnepan 3.7: At first I thought they were nothing special. I came back today, and they literally blew me away. Just a great allrounder, deep extended bass, great detail, and nice mids and highs, everytime I listen to a new speaker this will be my reference.


Unfortunately the bass really doesn't get better with MartinLogan, at least not in my experience. I've never heard one of their hybrids that was even remotely able to blend its woofer with the panel. Considering how bad their Depth and Descent subs are, getting good bass from a woofer in a box seems beyond their expertise. The Maggie 3.7 has been getting a lot of raves in the audio press. I haven't heard one yet, but supposedly it fixes much of the top to bottom coherency problems I had with earlier Maggies. Just remember that your mileage with them will very much depend on getting them to work with your room.

 

I'd be curious as to what you'd think of a Nola if you get a chance to hear one. Unlike the vast majority of dynamic driver speakers, there is no box for the mid range and tweeters, just a front baffle and a frame.

 

P1013344.jpg

post #30 of 32
Thread Starter 

I would absolutely want to try and listen to one of those speaker's. I sent my info to NOLA for a dealer in my area they haven't replied yet, I will try again incase I typed my email wrong. I definately want to listen to all the speakers recommended especially the EggelstonWorks, and the Dynaudio for sure, I'm going to the US soon so I'm going to audition everything I can.

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