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Grado modders go Magnum - Page 139

post #2071 of 3250

my gut is telling me oil treatment is not the answer. If I had the means, I would fabricate a set on my principles, focus on the geometry of the cup for tuning the overall sound first THEN deal with finish treament if needed, and start with simple burnishing before adding chemicals to the mix. Sometimes solutions to problems are sought when the problem is created ahead of time unknowingly. Whose to say the finish treatment is not an attempt at dealing with limitations produced by the overly massive cup to begin with and that the finish treatment itself is a part of the problem.

post #2072 of 3250
Quote:
Originally Posted by thelostMIDrange View Post

right, but are we all in agreement that a home run was hit with that treatment/cup?  Are they selling like hotcakes? In short, I think there is room for more experimentation there..the pics of the hp1000 look like bare metal.....

 

People kept complaining about the weight and comfort, lol... when the v3 driver got out people started buying it alone and making their own wooden cups (randomly shaped, randomly finished, [randomly, sound-wise] yes), and they didn't care much about the aluminum parts anymore.

 

But until that moment (v1 to v2-2.5, when the upgrade was done on the SR325[i{s}]' stock drivers), yes they sold like hot cakes (relatively, during their first 2 years), and continued to do so for about a year (as v3 and v4); initially Rhydon had filled all his initial slots when he first announce the Magnum project, and the demand was good enough to keep the "Head-Fi rebate" (of 200 dollars; 599-->399$) and upgrading his metal parts many times until settling at v4. He got back to us about one year after that telling us he was discontinuing them (with MartinCustomAudio and TurbulentLabs having started making full headphones with his driver). He have sold them for about 3 years.


Edited by devouringone3 - 12/8/12 at 7:38pm
post #2073 of 3250

so the assumption on that is that sales petered out because of the weight and not the sound. And while weight was a big issue for me, it was also a question of sound and it may be there is more than one reason to dislike a thing. It's not always a case of either/or. In any case, all the more reason to fashion a light set of aluminum cups if only for weight concerns. If they happen to sound better as a side affect, wouldn't that be a bonus......

post #2074 of 3250
Quote:
Originally Posted by thelostMIDrange View Post

i'm not sure plastic resonates. If it did gibson would be making plastic guitars.......

 

Lol, not that kind of resonance (he is talking about the 2k peak)... but I think I see where you're coming from, rounding all the edges of your headphones:

 

1000  You're a bass player... but you're doing it for the sound, right?

 

 

I did tell you on Changstar (only yesterday though, lol) that I was fascinated/intrigued by your work. Currently I'm on my way to reading all the post left of you that you haven't edited out considering us unworthy :P


Edited by devouringone3 - 12/8/12 at 8:25pm
post #2075 of 3250

So let's get back to plastic and try that angle. Why does plastic suck as a sound chamber for grado style drivers. Answer that and use that to make your next move. I'll tell you straight off it's not because it 'resonates' if that word means at all 'to accept vibrations produced by the driver'. If you have another definition we can proceed from, offer it up and then we can build off it......I like to think as a 6 year old. The driver is the only thing 'vibrating' initially. Why would you want to contain that vibration in itself by housing the driver in a dead cup? Does that seem logical? feeding back resonance onto the very object that is initiating the vibration in the first place....

post #2076 of 3250

I love the sound of Ovation guitars and the backs on them are not wood but they sound great.

post #2077 of 3250

Wood is still the lightest material, but has non uniform properties / anisothropy... but yeah they don't make bells out of wood either, and I think that's the direction you want to take.

 

You could give CNC schematics of your dimensions to these Australians: http://www.bb3.com.au/ so far they have duplicated the SR325i's geometry, but it's all in one nice piece; even the protective grids are an integral part of the cups.


Edited by devouringone3 - 12/8/12 at 8:05pm
post #2078 of 3250

you can love the sound of an ovation but that doesn't mean it's resonating as much a s full wood guitar. My hero, michael schenker uses an ovation but that's because he plays mostly lead lines on it and the semi-dead quality of an ovation allows for more clarity on quickly played lead playing.

post #2079 of 3250
Quote:
Originally Posted by thelostMIDrange View Post

So let's get back to plastic and try that angle. Why does plastic suck as a sound chamber for grado style drivers. Answer that and use that to make your next move. I'll tell you straight off it's not because it 'resonates' if that word means at all 'to accept vibrations produced by the driver'. If you have another definition we can proceed from, offer it up and then we can build off it......I like to think as a 6 year old. The driver is the only thing 'vibrating' initially. Why would you want to contain that vibration in itself by housing the driver in a dead cup? Does that seem logical? feeding back resonance onto the very object that is initiating the vibration in the first place....

Plastic does resonate (all materials do) - over a certain point (frequency) all materials become reflective (HF wants to bounce, over something like 5-10k it doesn't matter if you're talking plastic, wood, glass, diamonds, whatever - it's gonna reflect the wave). The "ideal" housing for any audio transducer would be absolutely D-E-A-D (we're talking absolutely non-reactive; made from unobtanium); which would translate into no stored energy. Then you'd only be limited by the transducer itself, and assuming you had the magic to create such a dead enclosure, let's assume you could build a DC-to-light (and therefore perfectly phase coherent) transducer too.

But that isn't reality - in reality the driver creates waves, and they interact with whatever it's held by. Open-back designs solve a lot of problems, but enclosure geometry still matters (e.g. the length of the "tube" on Grados will impact sound). But lower frequencies don't like to reflect as readily - they tend not to stop unless you have something big and heavy in the way that refuses to budge. This is why concrete and other equally heavy materials are popular for hilarious subwoofer designs (I've seen solid granite, concrete, cinderblocks, multiple-inch thick MDF, etc). The argument about aluminum being the ideal for a headphone housing is a long-running one, and it has to do with aluminum's internal resonances versus that of other materials - it is considered to be more stable. However I've never known people to agree on aluminum headphones being the best sounding thing ever made; usually someone will pop in and nominate some other design.

So it comes down to a larger and more holistic POV being required - materials selection is important, but so is geometry, driver selection and voicing, and so on.

Oh, and while I'm not aware of "plastic" (such a vague word) guitars per se, there are plenty of fibreglass and CFRP instruments out there - and some of them sound pretty good!
Quote:
Originally Posted by devouringone3 View Post

Wood is still the lightest material, but has non uniform properties / anisothropy... but yeah they don't make bells out of wood either, and I think that's the direction you want to take.

Magnesium! But it has non-inexpensive properties/high cost. CFRP would also weigh less. And finally you can get wood pretty uniform if you're talking composite products; I mean sure, it may be 40% resin by weight, but it's UNIFORMLY 40% resin. tongue.gif

But seriously - we have to remember the disjoint between musical instruments and playback devices. Just because the ideal piano or violin is wood (for no other reason than the original piano or violin was wood), does not mean the ideal speaker (or headphone) is wood. And vice versa. The ideal speaker is a fridge-sized monster made out of something like Quikrete and packed with enough pink stuff to shame the Pink Panther. But that isn't practical as a headphone, for a variety of reasons. So you compromise. Then there's always the final question over preference - sure, you can build your ultra-damped and ultra-flat and ultra-linear (and ultra heavy) speaker, but will it be enjoyable to listen to? Data suggest that it will be the most acceptable to the most people, but admittedly I don't care what 70% or 80% of people like, I care what I like.
Edited by obobskivich - 12/8/12 at 8:14pm
post #2080 of 3250

right, I don't want a bell either. I want the cup to ring only the way it needs to deal with the particular drivers requirements. I don't want it to jingle jangle all over the place without end. If it did, the 300hz and impulse measurements would have read like garbage on my cups..... I think of it this way, paradoxically, if the cup 'resonates' in a certain way, it will do so in a balancing way so that the whole unit (driver and cup) resonates less. By limiting the resonance at the drivers edge, this is not allowed.

post #2081 of 3250
Quote:
Originally Posted by thelostMIDrange View Post

so, from reading the descript of the finish treatment, he seems to be suggesting that the micro ridge treatment is affecting the resonance of the entire cup, and it's not just a matter of the inner surface of the sound chamber? It's not clear what the philososphy is behind it for certain, other than a vague sense that the cup shouldn't resonate, which I agree seems logical. but I will continue to think outside the box and in accordance to what i'm hearing until proven otherwise......has a set of metal cups ever been measured other than the ps1/hp1000 set on innerfidelity?  All other mags/grados i've seen measurments for have been various wood cups.....

 

I think that it is for augmenting the total surface area ("porosity"), and do like a wall in an anechoic chamber basically: to attenuate reflection.

 

On innerfidelity there is this headphone that was measured:

 

700

 

(HP 1000 drivers inside PS1 cups)

 

 

Purrin is the only one who measured a stock HP 1000 so far. The FR and CSDs are quite good, but the HP 1000 drivers need not be mistaken with Grado/Magnum drivers discussed here.

 

"There are no similarities between the DH-40 and Grado's current driver save for possibly the doping substance. Impedance, dimensions, magnet structure, material composition, SPL, efficiency, all are substantially different." (- Rhydon)

 

So the way their interaction with the cups will be different too... like you said maybe they do benefit from all that extra liquidity and maximum inertia.

 

I don't know where the idea of shutting down and making the cups as inert as possible comes from... everyone before you? But I really like that you're defying this paradigm and want to put the cup resonance to good use, which really honors your signature.


Edited by devouringone3 - 12/8/12 at 8:55pm
post #2082 of 3250

obo, while this may be true for speakers in a living room, is it necessarily the same for a small grado driver on the ear? maybe, but maybe not.....what other headphone uses absolutely no damping or tricks behind the driver to adjust it's sound other than the cup itself? grado is a unique beast it seems so traditional rules may or may not apply. I will re-read your thesis but my basic assumption is not threatened by the info i've read so far and certainly not from experience......btw, I am working backwards, from reality and first hand listening to theory. Not from theory to application. In other words, i've heard ****ty sound from a magnum in a heavy odd shaped cocobolo cup and beautiful balanced sound in a light limba cup. I'm just trying to figure out why that is and maybe apply that info to an alum cup that has more potential for mass production, consistency and perhaps sound......


Edited by thelostMIDrange - 12/8/12 at 8:23pm
post #2083 of 3250
Quote:
Originally Posted by thelostMIDrange View Post

right, I don't want a bell either. I want the cup to ring only the way it needs to deal with the particular drivers requirements. I don't want it to jingle jangle all over the place without end. If it did, the 300hz and impulse measurements would have read like garbage on my cups..... I think of it this way, paradoxically, if the cup 'resonates' in a certain way, it will do so in a balancing way so that the whole unit (driver and cup) resonates less. By limiting the resonance at the drivers edge, this is not allowed.

You would need very accurate measurements of the driver and it's resonance, and then you would have to build a very elaborate model of an enclosure that acts as a convolving filter to invert that resonance. I think it'd be easier to just measure a completed headphone and build such a filter digitally and route it through DSP; mostly because the later actually exists and can act multi-band while the former will inherently have problems (you can't have an enclosure that has a complex CSD and acts as a wide-range filter on the system; at some point it will ring).
Quote:
Originally Posted by thelostMIDrange View Post

obo, while this may be true for speakers in a living room, is it necessarily the same for a small grado driver on the ear? maybe, but maybe not.....what other headphone uses absolutely no damping or tricks behind the driver to adjust it's sound? grado is a unique beast it seems so traditional rules may or may not apply. I will re-read your thesis but my basic assumption is not threatened by the info i've read so far and certainly not from experience

The acoustics change somewhat with headphones versus speakers, as you're removing the room from the equation and replacing it with the fixed (as in fixed to you, not fixed to the headphone) transfer function of your own ear (okay, it's fixed inasmuch as I've yet to see someone get cosmetic surgery to change their hearing). So we basically assume that as a constant, because whatever you hear today is likely what you'll hear tomorrow, and it doesn't matter if I hand you a K701 or an RS-1 it's going through the same filter before it gets to your earhole (and your overall hearing acuity is going to be as good or bad as it is with either headphone).

As far as the Grados using "no damping or tricks" - that isn't entirely true. Their design more closely approximates an open-baffle or quarter-wave design, and those exist all over the place with speakers (they just aren't "popular"). True, they are a somewhat unique design, but they aren't "open to the world" like the K1000, F1, or V1 (you wanna talk REALLY open!). The enclosure contributes to the sound, as does the earpad coupling, and finally the voicing and design of the drivers themselves (they are designed to sound a certain way, and don't suddenly go "flat" when liberated, however they do look different when measured "liberated" versus housed (and the housings do mediate different measurement results too (further confused by Grado's report that they are indeed different drivers across model lines))).
Edited by obobskivich - 12/8/12 at 8:22pm
post #2084 of 3250

obo, I didn't say grado used no tricks for damping, only that the cup and it's geomety/finish is the only available tool for that. Other phones use cotton, felt, focusing etc.

 

 

devouring,I don't know where the idea of shutting down and making the cups as inert as possible comes from... everyone before you? the problem is that everyone before me is making some pretty lackluster products. I feel fine questioning their findings. Believe me, If I could have found a satisfactory headphone for reasonable $, I wouldn't give two ****s about this stuff. Sennheiser and all their test equip and grado and his personal tastes has proven a little inadequate for me so far......

post #2085 of 3250
Quote:
Originally Posted by thelostMIDrange View Post

So let's get back to plastic and try that angle. Why does plastic suck as a sound chamber for grado style drivers. Answer that and use that to make your next move. I'll tell you straight off it's not because it 'resonates' if that word means at all 'to accept vibrations produced by the driver'. If you have another definition we can proceed from, offer it up and then we can build off it......I like to think as a 6 year old. The driver is the only thing 'vibrating' initially. Why would you want to contain that vibration in itself by housing the driver in a dead cup? Does that seem logical? feeding back resonance onto the very object that is initiating the vibration in the first place....

 

Plastic sucks as sound chambers for Grado style drivers because it's not luxurious enough? (at least that's the reason that pushes people into placing an order for TurbulentLabs cups or other woodies; we have yet to see graphs or sincere impression or ABing of those compared the same driver as it was housed previously) I don't know, Grado had an ABS plastic molding machine for cartridges, they started making headphones with it. It is far from optimal for sound, but it's practical for churning out 20k SR60i per year.

 

Before 2 days ago (when I read a post by Lostmidrange and discovered the measurements of his Gradheiser as that of a Grado) I was a believer that cups changed NOTHING ever to the sound; so you can consider me free from any opinion.

 

 

Dead cups are to avoid containing anything actually, but I'm beginning to smell something isn't right about: "adding and taking nothing from the sound". If they are dead, well they don't contribute to improving anything, not wanting to get their hands dirty. They leave the driver unhelped dealing with ringing and other flaws, right?

 

Your idea is of using cups capable of flexing/vibrating to work in tandem / "as one" with the driver, smoothing out frequency response and diffusing/absorbing sound peaks and irregularities while strengthening the lost mid range, from what I understand.


Edited by devouringone3 - 12/8/12 at 8:54pm
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