SOMEONE NEEDS TO TELL ME HOW AWESOME/NOT AWESOME THESE MAGNUM X'S ARE
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Grado modders go Magnum - Page 134post #1996 of 307011/28/12 at 8:48pm
Gear mentioned in this thread:post #1997 of 307011/28/12 at 8:57pmpost #1998 of 307011/28/12 at 9:00pmQuote:Originally Posted by thelostMIDrange
one would think, and in my haphazard testing i would lean towards that conclusion but none of this is scientific. I suspect poly is used for its ease of application and durability/appearance. And the general public is pretty concerned with appearances ime so companies are giving the people what they want and they really can't be blamed. But for me, the whole point is as you suggest, to get away from the plastic grado inner liners and their affect on sound. Now the finish being poly doesn't necessarily mean it's the same as plastic cups because underneath is wood and it will react differnent than a full plastic. But why even go in that direction is my thinking.....otherwise those classic cups look great and are priced right. Whether they tried a half dozen finishes and picked poly because of it's sound is only known to the maker. It takes alot of time and effort to perform such tests (trust me on that one) so you can use your own judgement as to whether it was done or not............but all things considered, i'd say that cable has more affect than the finish on the cups......
I really thought Vibro cups were like yours, oiled and all that, but not polyed. You have blown my mind, I mean, I really had no plans to do buy them, and had given it little thought, but everyone has indicated that polyed cups are so thoroughly plastic-esque that there's very little point. I'm very, very surprised.post #1999 of 307011/28/12 at 9:40pmpost #2000 of 307011/28/12 at 10:13pmpost #2001 of 307011/28/12 at 10:17pmQuote:Originally Posted by thelostMIDrange
the other factor in magnum builds is how that driver is mounted. using a fairly thick foam band around the driver before it's fit in the cup is going to change things compared to mounting the driver with a direct press fit of driver to cup. Again, that option is much harder in terms of production. oversizing the opening and letting expandable foam make up variance of drivers is much more do-able and will reduce callbacks and unhappy customers. But it does affect things and is a factor I'm certain.
I figured they were mounted more like Rhydon's own build, with screws. Wow, I guess I should have read more.post #2002 of 307011/28/12 at 10:23pmpost #2003 of 307011/29/12 at 7:19am
All Grado are like that too, each batch (of drivers) is a little bit different, and improves over longer periods of time. Rhydon just climbed that hill a lot faster. I think that his drivers are still considerably superior to those of Grado, but not as much night and day superior as they were when he first came up with v1-v2 and v2.5 modifying SR325(i(s)) drivers. Grado recently made an extra effort to catch up (coincidentally with the release of the Magnum in 2009 but not causally so)... I'm not saying that they have caught up, but they surely will if Rhydon stops doing what he does best: being a perfectionist.
I remember reading on their blog, website or facebook that Taiden chose this finish because of it's good reproduceability/uniformity for better unit-to-unit consistency.
Only you (and now some of your followers) dear LostMIDRange is so much into the effect on the sound of each wood type, treatment and their finish, and experimenting so meticulously in the field; most others, customers of MartinCustomAudio-Headphile-TurbulentLabs and Grado wooden cups maker on Head-Fi (Cabilla, Nickchen, I spotted quite a few of them), want a practical, light, durable, and good looking solution.
If I remember correctly people complained about the weight (comfort...) of the Full Aluminum Magnum builds, but not so much their actual sound... and I think that's the reason why they lost in popularity to the wooden cups and assemblies.
Oh yeah and I also think that foam tape driver mounting is "sub-optimal" (but to the point of making a difference in final perceived SQ of the product, I don't even think one could tell the two in a blind test), and that those cups should be very tightly hugging their driver (theoretically, but it is never achieved in practice), with only a ring of strong glue/cement on top to hold it from budging or falling off. Normal cable holes too, and not a slot. But making the cups this way would be far less convenient and user-friendly. So there is a lot more to gain the way they make their cups... and like I said, very limited impact on SQ, the average end user would not tell a difference.
I also think the Turbulent Labs cups are the best price for quality around town thanks to their streamlined production.
Edited by devouringone3 - 11/29/12 at 7:51ampost #2004 of 307011/29/12 at 7:28amQuote:Originally Posted by thelostMIDrange
nope. the set screw method is more the direct contact idea except it's a few points. Think about the grado cup. It has no foam, or cotton or any damping material like most phones use. The cup itself and how the driver mounts is the whole thing. Any tuning is in the cup shape, overallmass, length, finish, driver mounting and headband mounting. So all those things matter. Maybe one is not necessarily best in all situations but the whole thing has to be tuned as a unit. One mounting method might work with one finish and another mount with another. Or maybe one mount or finish is always best. I have my own views but these things are what we should be working on to fine tune the driver ime. So to be fair, we have to assume the poly with foam mounting was designed to go together with that driver.
anyone else interested in doing some though experiements regarding the grado style cup/driver....namely, what is happening in terms of damping and resonance in this style headphone. How much and what kind of each is best? What does the mounting have to do with the cup in terms of resonance? Do we want the two to resonate together or be isolated from one another?
the way i see it, Grado's drivers are fully glued in the cups. The glue is a slight buffer but basically it's acting as one unit. Sort of like a gibson les paul set neck guitar which has a glued in neck. It has a certain sound, alot of sustain but little snap and bite.
symphones original design had 3 or 4 set crews pressure against the driver sort of like a fender strat bolt on neck guitar. It has a bit less overall sustain but a more clear attack and bell like quality.
vibro has foam around the driver essentially isolating alot of the driver vibration from being transferred to the cup. The dynamic pulsing of the 'cone' is isolated from the cup in a way. What is this doing to the sound. Does the driver want to resonate with the cup and if so at what frequency. Grado's whole pitch seems to be that they isolated by trial and error the freq at which a certain species of mahog and finish actually resonates with or against the driver either cancelling or allowing the driver to 'vibrate'.
After all my own trials, I feel the cup is best to be light and delicate with little overall mass and a finish that lets it vibrate sympathetically with the driver, sort of an instrument in and of itself. I hear more delicacy in sound and detail over a more dense wood or one that is overall more mass. So far I also seem to prefer a driver that is moderately press fit in the cup, not so tight as to put so much pressure on the cup that it prevents it from freely doing it's thing, but not so loose as to require alot of tape in between to dampen things so much that the driver is isolated from the cup..........
of the three methods of driver mounting, the foam wrap method seems to be the most opposite traditional grado from what I can see.......... I'm guessing grado glues them in for warranty and practical reasons, just as much as sound. they want a driver that will stay put over the long haul to assure minimal product returns. A direct press fit while maybe sounding best? would never be an option for a commercial seller as the driver may loosen over time or with seasons (although I doubt it and mine haven't in almost 2 years) and could theoretically be a warrenty nightmare. Luckily diy'ers don't have this concern and so we can mount them any way that seems best....
maybe if we can theoretically conclude as to why and if we want the driver and cup to resonate, we can then move on to whether or not a poly finish is a problem or an asset. If we don't want the cup to resonate, then the poly would seem to be an asset but opposite if we conclude the cup should be in motion in some way.......Any thoughts, let 'em fly..........
Well, your testing seems to contradict that entirely. You use a tone wood because it resonates, I'm guessing it resonates at even harmonics. One could get the vibro, secure one using the foam, and the other using soemthing like epoxy (I'm thinking tamale, for ease) as that stuff is pretty rigid. Honestly, the foam seems like a bad idea. The worst way to mount a driver tends to be such that there is any interaction between the front and back of the driver, which will cancel out the front side. That's why Grados have cups in the first place, else we'd just mount a driver in a gimbal (if it sounded that great, we'd find a way).
Do you ever make cups for other folks? I would love to see what you hear, and compare it to my full Magnum.post #2005 of 307011/29/12 at 8:06ampost #2006 of 307011/30/12 at 9:24ampost #2007 of 307011/30/12 at 12:00pm
I too though that, but it would imply that:
Manta headbands are at their second version
Vibro cups at their first
And the same for their hydra cables
Which seems like it and makes sense actually... I wonder what each of these other badges/logos mean.
Edited by devouringone3 - 11/30/12 at 12:01pmpost #2008 of 307011/30/12 at 12:51pmpost #2009 of 307011/30/12 at 1:09pmQuote:
I think the number is the version number, like you said. I don't think the first symbol means anything, other than to correspond to the feature bullets below. Maybe the M means matched or something, and the S indicates that it is a single item? Basically, it's indicating extensive channel matching, maybe?post #2010 of 307012/2/12 at 11:44am
notice anything here in these 300 hz square responses ?
30HZ square - notice how all grados and magnums will have semi-loose and fairly non punchy low end. I have no problem with this however
FR - notice anything about:
the 2k grado peaks
severity of low end hump
high end overactivity
of the dozen grado/magnums measured over at tyll's site. only two are able to quiet the 2k grado peak. the hp1000 and gradheiser. aren't you curious how that was accomplished?
cocobolo cups, especially of certain geometry, sound pretty poor in every way.
there is little that can be done to make grado's overly punchy, and thank god for that.
you don't have to have high distortion in a grado/magnum
even the mighty hp1000 driver can be degraded with poor cup tuning. The hp1000 is hailed as one of the best headphones ever people. How can the driver perform as it does in the above graph. ask yourself that.
the grado style phone measures pretty poorly compared to reference phones. this is widely known, but all these pad mods and holes in the back of drivers etc are pretty meaningless compared to the cup tuning.
John grado did not do the grado phone technology any justice over the last however many years when he took over the helm. There is potential untapped. magnum modders can tap it and steer the ship in a smoother more natural direction if they focus on the right things......
The only mod I did to the gradheiser 650 phones involves the cups. No pad mods. This should reinforce the understanding regarding the power of the cup in shaping magnum sound and you all need to demand that makers of wood cups take notice if you want anything approaching consistent or reference quality sound from your magnums. current and past cup makers have absolutely dropped the ball and failed to notice even after months and years now of evidence to the contrary. They might as well be part of the flat earth society. that group of hangers on who just didn't want to admit the new evidence of a round earth. Please please people, stop the insanity. inquire as to why the gradheiser performs as it does. learn, grow, prosper....carry on.
anyone who is motivated can take closer looks at the gradheiser650 and compare with all other grado, magnum, or any other phone over at tyll's site.
Edited by thelostMIDrange - 12/2/12 at 12:32pm
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