Does which DAC you have really matter? - Page 3  

I think there's a difference between low cost dac's and more expensive dac's, but maybe it's important to know the characteristics of the differences and not just to ask "which is better". Maybe the appreciation of different gear is as subjective as appreciating different songs, or different genres. Most of us may think Bach compositions are generally more complex than Mozart's, but does it mean it is "better"? People may agree classical music is more coherent than rap music, does it mean it is "better"? "Better" can mean two things, technical superiority or subjective preference or experience, and while we may generally agree upon technical superiority, subjective preference can vary greatly. So how is a more expensive dac better than a cheap dac in terms of enjoyment? i think that's different for everyone, and some people may actually dislike how revealing some expensive dac's can be, even when gear is properly matched.

 

Measurable accuracy isn't always the goal, some audio companies deliberately add or allow measurable distortion for musicality or the psychological perception of greater accuracy, and people buy their gear knowing these things.

Edited by haloxt - 11/9/11 at 6:00am

When I upgraded my DAC, classical music has the most noticeable difference from the other genres. Generally, everything became much clearer and smoother. But the strings has this added depth and realism to them.

 

Audiable differences can be measured, generally theres no audiable differences between a very high end and mid priced dac, If a mid dac measures flat across the frequency range 20hz-20khz , no audiable disortion , jitter or noise , it will sound the same as a dac costing 10times as much ,you just want to avoid the $10 1's with the C-Media chips.

To me, there is two types of DAC.

Crappy DAC or working DAC. If it have a flat FR, decent enough stereo separation and other measurement, it is working fine. Most number beyond that is beyond our hearing and FAR beyond what audio device can reproduce nowadays.

See measurement of amps and you will see why. If you have a working DAC to a standard, I say don't bother changing it. Want your working DAC to sound coloured? Instead of paying a lot for a crappy DAC, use a good EQ to do the same job and you can even change it to sound like many combinations of those coloured DACs!

Shame that there most portable DAC aren't up to standard, mostly having a sub-par stereo separation due to size restrain.
Edited by Ra97oR - 11/9/11 at 6:38am

The problem is how do we define audible distortion. There are measurable differences between different dac's, but it may be as subtle as water with slight differences in mineral content. There's certainly different tastes in water with different mineral content, but how do we know the threshold for when we call it a significant difference? You can get a million different answers. I think it's the same with trying to define human audibility in audio gear. Most people would say vibration isn't an issue in audio gear, but they use two probabilities to justify their position, the unlikelihood of vibration from affecting the signal, and the fact no DBT has been passed and published proving human audibility of vibration in audio gear. It's not an absolutely certain fact that vibration doesn't affect the sound, it's just seen from that particular vantage point it is unlikely. That doesn't stop some audio designers from using expensive vibration control parts. Neither do some stop trying to get more technical improvements because some people say there can't be more audible improvements.

1% is considered to be the audiable amount of disortion, it will probley differ between different people some might be able to hear 0.9% and some not until 1.5%, a dac with a low level output is normally  in the 0.00*% range, the $30 beringer uca202 has 0.008% THD with the loudest possible 0 dBFS signal from it's low level outputs miles and miles away from audiable to any human.

Headphones amps are very different there disortion depends on the power(vrms) into a load(ohm).

I would say 1% is probably a little too liberal - but that's the great thing - decent DACs with stupidly small amounts of distortion are pretty cheap nowadays. You can have your massive overkill cake and eat it. Hell, I did - the CA DACMagic performs far better than it needs to, but in all fairness the multiple inputs and digital passthrough are useful to have.

Just bought a V DAC II.  Compared to the beresford TC 7510 I was using it is definitely a significant improvement.  Human voice is more realistic sounding - smoother with no loss of definition.    Has about all of the latest technology and thinking for a reasonable price.  

 

Just try it and I think you will hear an improvement.  Good cost/benefit/diminishing returns.  

 

Mac -> Fidelia player -> Generic USB 2.0 cable -> v-dac ii -> short old shielded gold plated interconnects - > meier concerto - > beyer dt880/600

 

FA

 

 

Edited by francoamerican - 11/10/11 at 10:28am

 

 

The TC7510 is using such an obsolete DAC chip that they actually burn the top of its package w/ acid, but it's supposedly an old chip from CS. Obviously, old Delta/Sigma DAC's(that don't even reach 96dB of SNR) don't sound as soon as the newest...as you've noticed

That said, you should try to keep the DAC and amp as low in distortion as possible (within reason, like don't sweat 0.0003% vs 0.003%, or even 0.03%) because headphones introduce a lot themselves.

I agree,  we are in the stone ages with regard to correlating audio measurements to our ear's temporal membrane.  To say one DAC adds color or eq based on measurements is basically saying "I have unlocked the sectret code of perception and its just basic newtonian physics."   Just a little study in modern physics and neuroscience and you learn to trust your ears.  There are a lot of numbers games,  like you can't just say a DAC has 0.001 % THD+N,  what is the THD+N at -20 db down?  Even more interesting is what does the is 10khz FFT look like at -60 dB down.  

 

And remember most headamps amps still take the DAC, output attenuate it with the volume control then amplify back up only to drive a buffer needed to supply current lost in the volume attenuator.  In other words -60db numbers become very relavant with post amplification. 

 

None of this is black and white,  its very complex,  no one has all the answers.   And don't forget the digital and analog filters,  phase response can have a huge impact to what we hear.   If one has a DAC with .0001% THD and +- 5 degrees phase distortion in the audio band,  is it better than a DAC with .01% and +- 0.1 phase across the audio band?  Which one is more "colored"?

 

Audio is not simple physics,  never will be as long as the device under test includes human perception (hearing.)  That doesn't mean its all subjective/psychology.  Its called the limits of science/physics.  Yes its true, we engineers and scientists haven't got a Grand Unfied Theory (google it),  let alone a model of perception.

 

 

 

I'm not one to say $1,000 will score you a better DAC than $30, but more often than not it will. To say most DACs are the same because all they do is convert digital to analog is akin to saying most phono cartridges or microphones are the same because they convert mechanical movement into electrical impulses. It's not so much what they do, but how they go about it. In the case of DACs, jitter rejection, async USB, and a high quality analog output stage all make a difference. I could easily detect an improvement between a $1,500 and a $6,000 DAC in terms of overall quality, bottom and top end extension, soundstage, you name it. Is this differece worth $4,500? That I cannot answer but for me.

 

Thank you!

 

Too many posts in this thread seem to infer that all DAC's sound alike. This is misleading to someone new in this hobby. They obviously do not.

 

You'll have to differentiate between referring to the actual DAC chip and to a DAC as a complete audio device. A DAC's sound is dependent on the design implementation and the design of the input/output stage more than the actual chip. 

 

Will DAC made by company A sound different from DAC made from company B. -- Very likely YES

 

Despite all the measurements and data, don't forget that all this music is in the end going into the most flawed and colored device on the planet...Your ears and your brain.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by francisdemarte - 11/11/11 at 10:12am

Hey, careful now with the insults! Oh, wait, you said "ears" not "arse". nwm

 

 

I had my skepticism about jitter until I added the WaveLink to my chain.  The effect was about as subtle as a baseball bat, and it finally elevated my DAC to all the superlatives I've read in reviews.  Until I added the WaveLink, I thought all the glowing DAC praise was a bit exaggerated, but now I think it seems spot on.

 

I had trouble justifying a low jitter device until I actually took a leap of faith and added it to my setup.  Generally speaking, a lot of DAC developers claim their boxes are stand-alone or have the best implementation of X possible, but it's really hard to tell until you actually start listening and tweak your chain (different inputs, quality of signal, etc.).