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New Audeze LCD3 - Page 621

post #9301 of 9743
Quote:
Originally Posted by KmanChu View Post
 

It's actually the other way around. If the flagship headphone had a different name each year because they made incremental improvements then a flagship from 2 years ago would be perceived to be completely "outdated" rather than variations on the theme. If something sounds fundamentally different then call it something different, like the LCD-X. The LCD-3F (which it does say on the box "Fazor Edition") is an incremental change on the older LCD-3, but it still sounds like an LCD-3. Better for them to be continuously pushing forward than not. I don't see how offering an upgrade program is a bad thing. Its actually reassuring knowing you can upgrade to the current version without losing all of your previous outlay.

 

My problem is that Fazor is not a very incremental change, from the graphs shown here it is changing things considerably, I haven't had a chance to listen to it for too long, I've heard it from an almost new pair. It was rather different sounding.

 

You don't have to call the incremental updates anything, but if you make something that's really is new, don't add it to the current line up. Perhaps you're right about the addition of the option to get an "upgrade" but that's only when you give this new addition in newer models of the same name and other people who bought it before that, otherwise, not to make your customers feel like they've been screwed in any way shape or form is make something like LCD-X and leave it at that, or call it LCD-4 if it's supposed to be better,  lower the price on LCD-3 and sell LCD-4 for the same money or something like it.

 

I'm not telling anyone how to run their businesses, I'm just expressing my own opinion, everyone has them, I should have the same right for expressing it as anyone else and I'm not offending anyone literally.

post #9302 of 9743
Quote:
Originally Posted by XVampireX View Post
 

 

My problem is that Fazor is not a very incremental change, from the graphs shown here it is changing things considerably, I haven't had a chance to listen to it for too long, I've heard it from an almost new pair. It was rather different sounding.

 

You don't have to call the incremental updates anything, but if you make something that's really is new, don't add it to the current line up. Perhaps you're right about the addition of the option to get an "upgrade" but that's only when you give this new addition in newer models of the same name and other people who bought it before that, otherwise, not to make your customers feel like they've been screwed in any way shape or form is make something like LCD-X and leave it at that, or call it LCD-4 if it's supposed to be better,  lower the price on LCD-3 and sell LCD-4 for the same money or something like it.

 

I'm not telling anyone how to run their businesses, I'm just expressing my own opinion, everyone has them, I should have the same right for expressing it as anyone else and I'm not offending anyone literally.

 

The thing is, IMO, not "something that's really new" nor it changes the sound materially better/worse.  Very subtle changes and for me the change is for worse.  It could be entirely possible this is also how Audeze felt initially, but due to success of the X/XC and more importantly the marketing of this Fazor (TM) "technology" they unknowingly made us audiophools wanting it like it's the best thing since sliced bread.  

 

I think you should just go listen to the new LCD3 that came with fazor and you'll be able to decide if you really want it.  And if you still do, you can sell the LCD3 and buy another new one, and it probably won't cost much more than sending it in for the upgrade anyway provided your LCD3 is maintained well or still relatively new.  It's not like they were offering free upgrades and suddenly stop....

post #9303 of 9743
Quote:
Originally Posted by bonesnv View Post








Exactly. I just wanted to try the more neutral presentation of the X; otherwise I would still have my LCD3s and be happy as a clam. This whole technological update thing may be getting all blown out of proportion. Companies must innovate or get passed by in the market place. Not a big deal at all. Rest assured Sennheiser, Hifiman, and the others are not sitting by idly as time passes. Neither should Audeze.
post #9304 of 9743
Quote:
Originally Posted by commtrd View Post

Exactly. I just wanted to try the more neutral presentation of the X; otherwise I would still have my LCD3s and be happy as a clam. This whole technological update thing may be getting all blown out of proportion. Companies must innovate or get passed by in the market place. Not a big deal at all. Rest assured Sennheiser, Hifiman, and the others are not sitting by idly as time passes. Neither should Audeze.

Well, Hifiman has come out with the HE 560 to very good reviews. Interesting to see what Senn and Audez'e do.
post #9305 of 9743
My main problem is that they don't make these changes public. They just let us figure them out.
Let's say that someone just heard my pair and he likes it very much as it is. If he buys one he will get something that sounds different and he might not even like it due to less bass.
post #9306 of 9743
Quote:
Originally Posted by citraian View Post

My main problem is that they don't make these changes public. They just let us figure them out.
Let's say that someone just heard my pair and he likes it very much as it is. If he buys one he will get something that sounds different and he might not even like it due to less bass.

 

 

As a individual working for a company in the manufacturing industry, we make slot machines and casino management software, I would say your comments are not surprising in the least.  I don't mean that in a bad way, just that I have heard them often before from those on the outside of the process.

 

We have a base platform that we build upon and any R&D based tweaks to that specific platform are accounted for cost wise by up-selling the customer to upgrade them to the latest and greatest of what is basically the same model with some tweaks, or we make our money through the maintenance contracts, where we offer the upgrade for an annual fee.

 

Per gaming licensing, we have to disclose every tweak made and it has to go through a rigorous QA process.  Do you honestly think we inform every single one of our customers of every minor 2-3% performance tweak we make to our base platform?  No company really does that unless they are an up-starter looking to make a name, but they will change eventually.

 

Once you grow to a certain point, you have to reevaluate the needs of what should and should not be communicated.  It seems shady to those not in manufacturing, where there are huge amounts of trade secrets, but for those of us in it, this is status quo.  Intellectual property theft from manufacturing R&D is ranked right around #3 in global IT threats, that is something I have to watch every single day for my company. 

 

If Audeze offered the ability to pay the equivalent of maintenance/warranty, or say software assurance, for an additional annual fee would that make everyone happier, so they could get the latest and greatest that has only minor changes every time they made them?  If not, you will need to pay for the upgrade, which they did indicate on the website and box as having the Fazor system.

 

Seems similar to those wanting an iPhone 5 vs the 5s, because it was the latest and greatest even though the changes were "meh" and many were surprises to those who did upgrade.

 

EDIT:  In regards to their 261xxx serial numbers which had the Fazor, often times early semi-final release candidate products are pushed out at the very end of the R&D process to test the waters so to speak and see how they perform.  Once that is evaluated, we release the new product line upgrade and off we go.  As I said, I see where some think this is shady but it is common practice.


Edited by bonesnv - 7/5/14 at 5:55am
post #9307 of 9743

Big difference when you're talking a very niche market. 

post #9308 of 9743
Quote:
Originally Posted by paradoxper View Post
 

Big difference when you're talking a very niche market. 

 

 

Wouldn't say A/V is a niche market, just the headphone portion, the same concepts apply though.  Look at their competition that has been in the game MUCH much longer and is just a secretive in their process and practices.

 

Beyer?  Oppo?  Sennheiser?  The threads were littered with people pissed at Oppo for not even BETA testing with them.  Let alone announcing a change.

 

EDIT:  For frame of reference, I have the Fazor'ed version of the LCD3 on order.  When they release the Fazor Version 2.0, if I felt it was an upgrade then I would buy that one too, or accept that what I have is just fine and I don't need a 2% increase in sound quality that only bats can hear.

 

EDIT2:  Also, Beats made this a non-niche market.  Have you been to a Best Buy, Sears, Fry's or really any electronics store lately?  This market is expanding at an astounding rate, especially with the recent Apple acquisition.  People may hate on Beats but they blew this niche market wide open.


Edited by bonesnv - 7/5/14 at 6:17am
post #9309 of 9743
Quote:
Originally Posted by bonesnv View Post
 

 

 

Wouldn't say A/V is a niche market, just the headphone portion, the same concepts apply though.  Look at their competition that has been in the game MUCH much longer and is just a secretive in their process and practices.

 

Beyer?  Oppo?  Sennheiser?  The threads were littered with people pissed at Oppo for not even BETA testing with them.  Let alone announcing a change.

 

EDIT:  For frame of reference, I have the Fazor'ed version of the LCD3 on order.  When they release the Fazor Version 2.0, if I felt it was an upgrade then I would buy that one too, or accept that what I have is just fine and I don't need a 2% increase in sound quality that only bats can hear.

 

EDIT2:  Also, Beats made this a non-niche market.  Have you been to a Best Buy, Sears, Fry's or really any electronics store lately?  This market is expanding at an astounding rate, especially with the recent Apple acquisition.  People may hate on Beats but they blew this niche market wide open.

The point is, sure, they may upgrade/change certain aspects of the design on the LCD's (internals, etc) for better build quality, cheaper costs, more efficiency, etc. It is however, a completely different thing to upgrade the driver, etc and let it go quietly. That is a major change and one that has an impact on actual sound.

 

Lastly, Audez'e doesn't sell at Walmart or Best Buy so it's not relevant.


Edited by paradoxper - 7/5/14 at 6:27am
post #9310 of 9743
Quote:
Originally Posted by paradoxper View Post
 

The point is, sure, they may upgrade/change certain aspects of the design on the LCD's (internals, etc) for better build quality, cheaper costs, more efficiency, etc. It is however, a completely different thing to upgrade the driver, etc and let it go quietly. That is a major change and one that has an impact on actual sound.

 

Lastly, Audez'e doesn't sell at Walmart or Best Buy so it's not relevant.

 

 

Agree to disagree, because it's being portrayed that since they are a smaller niche business and aren't being sold in retail stores, they shouldn't play the same way the big dogs in the park play.  

 

Also, it is a complete different thing by whose standards?  Your standards?  My standards?  It's general consumerism, Apple does this all the time.  Because Audeze is "niche" as you like you say, people seem to be holding them to much different standards for some reason.  I disagree that this should be done, but we are all entitled to our viewpoints.

 

In the words of The Dude, "Well, that's just like, your opinion man..." :beerchug: 

 

 

EDIT:  In addition, if we do want to label them as an up-starter or niche player, then it should be fully expected that there will be consistent and constant changes until they DO reach the level of Senn, Beyer, Oppo, etc.  Which considering the press they have had recently, they are breaking through that barrier into the big leagues brick by brick.


Edited by bonesnv - 7/5/14 at 7:35am
post #9311 of 9743

I'm not going to treat an Apple case the same as Audez'e and so on, it's a completely different market and is very much apples to oranges.

It's common sense. 

 

Schiit: They upgrade stuff on their boards and don't tell the public, but it doesn't change the sound - it's small stuff. Now, if Schiit switched from AKM chips to Sabre,

it would be a very different conversation. Also, think about trickle-down technology, right. Schiit doesn't always charge more for these updates. Sometimes

the price stays the same.

 

 

 

Because they play to a niche crowd I believe they should involve consumer's more with what's going on. Not just let us figure it out. Again, look at Schiit and how

actively involved Jason is with the crowd.

post #9312 of 9743

Would you have preferred if I used Sennheiser as the comparison instead?  You seem rather hung up on the Apple comment and are sticking to it like I am comparing an iPod to a headphone, when I am discussing manufacturing processes and consumerism.

 

Personally, I find the Schiit guys somewhat brash and rather rude in their approach to their customers, basically telling us if we don't like it then go elsewhere and buy a different product.  Fair enough, that is exactly what I did.

 

Perhaps the people not liking the LCD3 changes or Audeze's practices should do the same.

post #9313 of 9743

I'm not going to waste anymore time with you. You said your piece, I said mine.

post #9314 of 9743
Quote:
Originally Posted by paradoxper View Post
 

I'm not going to waste anymore time with you. You said your piece, I said mine.

 

Fair enough, it's 4 o'clock somewhere, cheers. :beerchug:

post #9315 of 9743
^ That was a great exchange. Learned some stuff I didn't know. Cheers
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