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post #8446 of 9585
Quote:
Originally Posted by nigeljames View Post
 

 

Is that not the same as with all other phones as well. The LCD's don't do bass like speakers either IMO.

Actually, I find that both Audeze LCD-2 and 3 have a very accurate representation of bass. When you are mixing with them, you don't exaggerate by turning the bass knobs up like I would do with the HD800s.

Obviously you can get used to the sound signature and automatically assume if the headphone is misrepresenting the quantity and lower it but with the LCDs you don't need to do that, and that definitely is an advantage.

post #8447 of 9585
A lot of mixes of contemporary pop and dance music has unnatural and ridiculous amount of low frequencies, it may not sound right or enjoyable to you when you hear an accurate presentation of it through reference speakers or the LCD-2. And just because you prefer the way SR009 or HD800's present it doesn't mean it's accurate or good. If you go to a live Classical or Jazz concert, the double bass doesn't get very loud because it is not a very loud instrument naturally, but in a CD mix, the double bass can sometimes be over emphasized. A lot of the punchiness of the bass drum is actually in the high mids, being able to hear the tightness doesn't mean it has a lot of sub bass contents, a lot of the time, sub bass is about actually feeling it physically. Like the HiFi system in my Lexus isn't particularly good, but one can physically feel the bass drum pounding when one listens to Maroon 5 with it, which no headphones in this world (at whatever price) can ever produce.

I've demoed the SR009/7, HE6 and I own a pair of HD800 myself, they may all be great headphones with super details, but I wouldn't call them accurate or neutral. Besides, being accurate isn't what audiophiles are looking for anyway, having an enjoyable listening experience is the main thing, isn't it? I would consider the LCD-2/3 as reference sounding personally, whether they are better or worse than SR009/7, HE6 or HD800 is all up to personal taste and preference. cool.gif
Quote:
Originally Posted by negura View Post

I heard the 009s slamming really low and hard, with superb attack and very tight bass. I left very satisfied.

I guess what I am ultimately trying to say is that I find with the bass response from any of these headphones very satisfying: LCD-2,3, HD800s (tweaked), SR007MK1, SR009, HE-6. Yes, they have difference texturing, presentations and it's differently integrated etc. What I don't agree with is that any of these headphones somehow have insufficient bass. The question would be: How far can a flagship steer away anyway from reference reproduction before stopping being relevant as a top end hi-fi experience?
post #8448 of 9585
They would if you use them with Smyth Realiser, especially with LFE. cool.gif
Quote:
Originally Posted by nigeljames View Post

Is that not the same as with all other phones as well. The LCD's don't do bass like speakers either IMO.
post #8449 of 9585
I agreed with you on that, but I still find mixing with headphones doesn't translate 100% to mixing with speakers, you can get the FR mostly right but relative instrument levels would be slightly wrong, probably due to phrasing effects of the speaker and room reflections. The only way to get around that is using the Symth Realiser I find.

But I guess it also depends on how your target audience are going to listen to your mix, if they are mostly headphones users, then mixing though speakers only would be wrong too. cool.gif
Quote:
Originally Posted by dukeskd View Post

Actually, I find that both Audeze LCD-2 and 3 have a very accurate representation of bass. When you are mixing with them, you don't exaggerate by turning the bass knobs up like I would do with the HD800s.
Obviously you can get used to the sound signature and automatically assume if the headphone is misrepresenting the quantity and lower it but with the LCDs you don't need to do that, and that definitely is an advantage.

Edited by Danz03 - 10/28/13 at 8:46am
post #8450 of 9585
Quote:
Originally Posted by Danz03 View Post

I agreed with you on that, but I still find mixing with headphones doesn't translate 100% to mixing with speakers, you can get the FR mostly right but relative instrument levels would be slightly wrong, probably due to phrasing effects of the speaker and room reflections. The only way to get around that is using the Symth Realiser I find.

But I guess it also depends on how your target audience are going to listen to your mix, if they are mostly headphones users, then mixing though speakers only would be wrong too. cool.gif


True. I know a few engineers that mix with Apple earbuds because the majority of the target audience uses them.. Must be a painful job!

post #8451 of 9585

Imo, accuracy or a really good reproduction should translate into transparency ... e.g. that connection with the music when the gear simply gets out of the way. If that doesn't happen, the gear tries but doesn't quite succeed for whatever reason. When it's there you recognize it instantly.

Last week-end I got this with Avalon and PMC speakers on top-end dual VTL monoblocks, respectively Bryston. Everything was there, both accuracy and musicality.  And this is where you stop worrying about small details.

 

Going to the SR009s, HE6s or LCD-3s after those speaker systems (which was easy as they were right on the way), you can't stop but notice the massive constraints enforced by headphones on the presentation. Still I found myself toe tapping with the SR009s + jazz within 20 seconds and I forgot about the details.

post #8452 of 9585
Quote:
Originally Posted by Danz03 View Post

A lot of mixes of contemporary pop and dance music has unnatural and ridiculous amount of low frequencies, it may not sound right or enjoyable to you when you hear an accurate presentation of it through reference speakers or the LCD-2. And just because you prefer the way SR009 or HD800's present it doesn't mean it's accurate or good. If you go to a live Classical or Jazz concert, the double bass doesn't get very loud because it is not a very loud instrument naturally, but in a CD mix, the double bass can sometimes be over emphasized. A lot of the punchiness of the bass drum is actually in the high mids, being able to hear the tightness doesn't mean it has a lot of sub bass contents, a lot of the time, sub bass is about actually feeling it physically. Like the HiFi system in my Lexus isn't particularly good, but one can physically feel the bass drum pounding when one listens to Maroon 5 with it, which no headphones in this world (at whatever price) can ever produce.

I've demoed the SR009/7, HE6 and I own a pair of HD800 myself, they may all be great headphones with super details, but I wouldn't call them accurate or neutral. Besides, being accurate isn't what audiophiles are looking for anyway, having an enjoyable listening experience is the main thing, isn't it? I would consider the LCD-2/3 as reference sounding personally, whether they are better or worse than SR009/7, HE6 or HD800 is all up to personal taste and preference. cool.gif

I told him that too :)) . The bass presented with Audeze may be indeed in the songs, as I don't feel like they have more bass than the song should have especially as their measurements don't show any + in the bass area.


Edited by dan.gheorghe - 10/28/13 at 10:02am
post #8453 of 9585

I'm sorry, but to say the LCD3 is more accurate than an HD800 or SR-009 is nothing but nonsensical in this regard. The LCD3 is a very accurate headphone, with a significant and great touch of musicality and emphasized warmth to it. It is, to me, the closest thing to an audiophile tuning similar to what audiophiles would seek in high end speakers (hence the popularity of the LCD3 as well).

 

When I owned the LCD3, I loved them because they could allow me to sit back, relax, and enjoy the music. That's what this hobby is about anyways. I am a bit of a critical listener, so sometimes the portrayal of drums and woods would be over-emphasized and winds subdued with the LCD3; that's the only reason why I don't own them anymore.

 

I won't argue with anyone's opinion, but I'll stay behind my statement; the LCD3 is not on the level of the HD800/SR-009 as a reference can. (if on a reference system/ neutral calibrated rig)

post #8454 of 9585
Quote:
Originally Posted by dukeskd View Post
 


The 009 bass has great quality to it and is well separated from the midrange and treble. However, there is a roll-off in the ~60hz and lower range (sub-bass) which is quite an issue when you listen to electronica,etc. It is perfect for classical/jazz/acoustic and I actually loved listening to acoustic performances by Elvis Presley on the 009s, it was the best experience I've ever had from a headphone.

Actually, the SR-009's bass goes quite flat all the way down to 10Hz...2dB isn't anything much and certainly not a rolloff.

 

http://www.innerfidelity.com/images/StaxSR009SZ91278afterburnin.pdf

 

This is a bass roll-off:

http://www.innerfidelity.com/images/ShureSRH940.pdf

 

Even the LCD-3s have a bit of a dip down low. But with the wrong amp like the SRM727II, SRM007, or LL, I can see why. But with the KGSSHV, the SR-009's bass is immensely satisfying. Likewise for the LCD-3s. Unlike the LCD-2s, they are certainly more picky of upstream gear. 

post #8455 of 9585
Quote:
Originally Posted by MacedonianHero View Post
 

Actually, the SR-009's bass goes quite flat all the way down to 10Hz...2dB isn't anything much and certainly not a rolloff.

 

http://www.innerfidelity.com/images/StaxSR009SZ91278afterburnin.pdf

 

This is a bass roll-off:

http://www.innerfidelity.com/images/ShureSRH940.pdf

 

Even the LCD-3s have a bit of a dip down low. But with the wrong amp like the SRM727II, SRM007, or LL, I can see why. But with the KGSSHV, the SR-009's bass is immensely satisfying. Likewise for the LCD-3s. Unlike the LCD-2s, they are certainly more picky of upstream gear. 

 

Exactly right. If one looks at the graphs for many of the LCD-3 samples, a similar impression could come accross. 

http://www.innerfidelity.com/images/AudezeLCD3sn2312454.pdf

http://www.innerfidelity.com/images/AudezeLCD3sn2312260.pdf

http://www.innerfidelity.com/images/AudezeLCD3Rev2sn2613375circa2012.pdf

 

And neither the SR009s nor LCD-3s have a bass roll-off. :)

 

In terms of bass quantity I stand by what I said above. There's not a lot of room to maneuver for a flagship when dealing with quantities accross frequency response, before screwing up. The differences are dealt at a different level: transient response, tonal balance, imaging, soundstage, resolution.


Edited by negura - 10/28/13 at 5:33pm
post #8456 of 9585
Yes, the SR009 may not have a dip until 10hz, but there's also a peak at 10k, affecting the frequencies all the way down to 200Hz. Besides, I was saying the SR009/HD800 are bass light because I was using hip hop and dance music as reference, as bass is the essence of those genres of music, but for many other types of music, it's not that important. Instead of saying the SR009/HD800 are bass light, I could have said that they are overly bright instead. Take the bass drum for example, it's either boomy or tight, if it has more low frequencies contents, it will sound boomy, if it has more hi mids, it will sound tight, if you increase both, it will just sound louder, one cannot have something that is boomy and tight, there is no such thing, if you have too much of one thing, you'll lose the other. Imagine a monitor screen that is slightly red biased, of course the red is going to look nicer and more saturated and rich, but at the cost of compromising the blue and green at the same time. It's the same with music, more bass means less clarity, more details means thin sounding or more details mean bass light, more basss means veil, however you want to interpret it, there are no headphones that excel in everything that suit everyone. To me, the LCD-2 are the most balanced, but many ppl think they are not revealing enough too, so came the LCD-3, which in my mind, are slightly bass light. Something that's accurate isn't always appealing, an enhanced photograph of girl can look much better than the untouched version. Would you prefer to see the face of the cover girl of vogue covered in pimples or blemish or makeup free instead? So I don't see the point of ppl calling the SR009/HD800 accurate because they are not. Just listen to Lady Gaga's 'Just Dance' with them and tell me it doesn't sound more bass light or overly bright than a pair of desktop computer speakers. But then listen to Beethevon's symphony no 9 and tell me if the desktop speakers still sound better? And all the tweakings with expensive amps and cables only alters ones perception to the whole picture, there really is no right and wrong, it's like adding a little salt or pepper to suit one's taste.

I personally don't care too much about listening experience, I just need something accurate to do my work with, therefore, the LCD-2 r2.2 are my perfect phones.
Quote:
Originally Posted by negura View Post

Exactly right. If one looks at the graphs for many of the LCD-3 samples, a similar impression could come accross. 
http://www.innerfidelity.com/images/AudezeLCD3sn2312454.pdf
http://www.innerfidelity.com/images/AudezeLCD3sn2312260.pdf
http://www.innerfidelity.com/images/AudezeLCD3Rev2sn2613375circa2012.pdf

And neither the SR009s nor LCD-3s have a bass roll-off. smily_headphones1.gif

In terms of bass quantity I stand by what I said above. There's not a lot of room to maneuver for a flagship when dealing with quantities accross frequency response, before screwing up. The differences are dealt at a different level: transient response, tonal balance, imaging, soundstage, resolution.
post #8457 of 9585

Lol at all the HD800 'bass lacking' comments. It's a chameleon of your rig-not much more. I've heard my HD800 go from extremely weak sounding bass to absolutely thumping-just by changing between a few dacs (using the same Bryston BHA-1 amp). That's to say nothing of amp rolling with them either. ;) I used to feel that the Senns were inadequate with rock, pop, r&b, and electronica-til I got my chain up to snuff. Also-the Auditor was never part of said chain. ;)

 

-Daniel

post #8458 of 9585
If your amp can give a low frequencies boost of over 5dB, or cut out 5dB off the highs and mids, I'd call that an equalizer instead. I've demoed a lot of so called great amps for the HD800 and own a Schiit Mjolnir myself, none of those could alter the FR for more than 3%, and they shouldn't, understandably. cool.gif
Quote:
Originally Posted by BournePerfect View Post

Lol at all the HD800 'bass lacking' comments. It's a chameleon of your rig-not much more. I've heard my HD800 go from extremely weak sounding bass to absolutely thumping-just by changing between a few dacs (using the same Bryston BHA-1 amp). That's to say nothing of amp rolling with them either. wink.gif I used to feel that the Senns were inadequate with rock, pop, r&b, and electronica-til I got my chain up to snuff. Also-the Auditor was never part of said chain. wink.gif

-Daniel
post #8459 of 9585
Quote:
Originally Posted by dleblanc343 View Post
 

I'm sorry, but to say the LCD3 is more accurate than an HD800 or SR-009 is nothing but nonsensical in this regard. The LCD3 is a very accurate headphone, with a significant and great touch of musicality and emphasized warmth to it. It is, to me, the closest thing to an audiophile tuning similar to what audiophiles would seek in high end speakers (hence the popularity of the LCD3 as well).

No headphone is completely accurate. However, I was speaking about the bass on the LCD3 vs HD800 and 009. When doing music production it is as close to reference as you can get and this is confirmed when I move my work to speakers. Like I've mentioned before, it is not only my opinion but the opinion of many people in the EDM industry, some I consider my friends. It has the perfect decay and impact for judgement when producing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MacedonianHero View Post
 

Actually, the SR-009's bass goes quite flat all the way down to 10Hz...2dB isn't anything much and certainly not a rolloff.

 

http://www.innerfidelity.com/images/StaxSR009SZ91278afterburnin.pdf

 

This is a bass roll-off:

http://www.innerfidelity.com/images/ShureSRH940.pdf

 

Even the LCD-3s have a bit of a dip down low. But with the wrong amp like the SRM727II, SRM007, or LL, I can see why. But with the KGSSHV, the SR-009's bass is immensely satisfying. Likewise for the LCD-3s. Unlike the LCD-2s, they are certainly more picky of upstream gear. 

It may have been the fault of the amplifier but I've been PMing head-fiers that own the 009s and BHSEs, T2s,etc, and they come to the same conclusion as me. It is the character of the 009 and nothing will change that. The 007mkI has more quantity in its bass but it also depends on the seal that you get with the ear pads. This is why the Audeze cans have superior bass, the seal is critical to it. If the 009 did not have the $5k price tag, many people would not be defending it and would acknowledge that the little brother, 007mkI, is just technically better.

 

On the topic of frequency response graphs:

I like reading data from frequency graphs as much as the next person (and I am  an engineer  by profession as you are MH, data is our livelihood) but my ears sometimes tell me a different story. I still think that the measurements are inaccurate to what we hear because of factors such as ear pad, seal, internal reflections, etc.

post #8460 of 9585
Quote:
Originally Posted by BournePerfect View Post
 

Lol at all the HD800 'bass lacking' comments. It's a chameleon of your rig-not much more. I've heard my HD800 go from extremely weak sounding bass to absolutely thumping-just by changing between a few dacs (using the same Bryston BHA-1 amp). That's to say nothing of amp rolling with them either. ;) I used to feel that the Senns were inadequate with rock, pop, r&b, and electronica-til I got my chain up to snuff. Also-the Auditor was never part of said chain. ;)

 

-Daniel

I've owned the HD800 + Phonitor for about 2 years, and for 1 year they were my only primary setup. Back then, I did enjoy all the genres you speak of until I moved to other cans and noticed how weak they are with said genres. The Phonitor/Auditor is extremely neutral and IMO shows the real character of the HD800s.

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