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New Audeze LCD3 - Page 563

post #8431 of 9637
I think everyone hear differently. On my current playlist for hd800 (my playlist keep changing as I have only less than 100gb on ssd on my CAPS music server), and it include Infected Mushroom, Kimbra, Michael Jackson, Destiny Child. I still have a nice deep bass and it hits nicely. Of course I have Joe Hisaishi, Kitaro, Alison Krauss, Norah Jones, Led Zeppelin etc, but I like hearing a good recording dance track on hd800 as well.The speed and effortless of hd800 (and the bass of hd800 go deep, deeper than my old lcd2) make listening to good dance track very enjoyable. Bad dance recording, it's not painful, but not engaging at all (few Madonna album).

I did go great length to remove the treble peak of my setup (which I heard on both th900 a bit and hd800 a lot) which include rolling interconnect, adding custom linear supply on my converter and usb port etc. Also, removing all those noisy wallwarts (phone charger etc) around my listening area. These smoothen my setup and bring deep bass according to my ears.
post #8432 of 9637
Quote:
Originally Posted by jsgraha View Post

I think everyone hear differently. On my current playlist for hd800 (my playlist keep changing as I have only less than 100gb on ssd on my CAPS music server), and it include Infected Mushroom, Kimbra, Michael Jackson, Destiny Child. I still have a nice deep bass and it hits nicely. Of course I have Joe Hisaishi, Kitaro, Alison Krauss, Norah Jones, Led Zeppelin etc, but I like hearing a good recording dance track on hd800 as well.The speed and effortless of hd800 (and the bass of hd800 go deep, deeper than my old lcd2) make listening to good dance track very enjoyable. Bad dance recording, it's not painful, but not engaging at all (few Madonna album).

I did go great length to remove the treble peak of my setup (which I heard on both th900 a bit and hd800 a lot) which include rolling interconnect, adding custom linear supply on my converter and usb port etc. Also, removing all those noisy wallwarts (phone charger etc) around my listening area. These smoothen my setup and bring deep bass according to my ears.

Have you tried the HD800 Rabid Dog Mod I (Anax 2.0). Pretty much removes the treble 6k peak you speak of.

post #8433 of 9637
Don't think there's such a thing as bad dance recordings, more to do with trends. In the 60s and 70s, disco music were mixed with much less bass, as 12"/33 and 7"/45 vinyls just could't deliver huge amount of low frequencies without eating up play time. In the 80s, when 12" singles became popular, it's possible to have better sounding reproduction with more low frequencies, and with CDs in the 90s, the lower frequencies are much less of a problem. Nowadays, with all those mastering plugins like brick wall limiters and maximizers, it is possible to have ridiculous amount of low frequencies with almost no dynamic range.

If I did a dance track mix with my reference speaker monitors, listening to it through my LCD-2 would give me a very similar sounding representation, whereas with the HD800, it can be almost unlistenable, with too much highs and too little bass. With acoustic mixes, I find the HD800 would enchance the reverb, as if I've used more reverb than I actually did, probably explains why most people love the soundstage of the hd800. Another thing it exaggerates is noise, any minute background noise or artifacts become inescapable, which might be a good thing or a bad thing depends on how you look at it. Lots of pop music weren't mixed so perfectly, even with big budget projects like Adele and Celine Dion's, and those mistakes or artifacts weren't meant to be heard, but HD800 would show them to you like a sore thumb. On the other hand, you can hear a lot more details that you weren't able to hear with other headphones.

I think whoever designed the HD800 intended for them to be used with acoustic music, classical or jazz, and not hip hop and dance, and give an enchanted rather than an accurate sounding experience, a bit like making it sound more nature and live-like than it actually is. Whereas the LCD-2 are more accurate than enjoyable to listen to, the LCD-3 are somewhere in between. I'm sure if someone were to equalized the bass response of the LCD-3 to something similar to HD800, they would probably sound quite similar.

I did try a mod on my hd800 before, it did change the sound signature a little but it also took away what's special about them in the first place, especially the wide soundstage.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jsgraha View Post

I think everyone hear differently. On my current playlist for hd800 (my playlist keep changing as I have only less than 100gb on ssd on my CAPS music server), and it include Infected Mushroom, Kimbra, Michael Jackson, Destiny Child. I still have a nice deep bass and it hits nicely. Of course I have Joe Hisaishi, Kitaro, Alison Krauss, Norah Jones, Led Zeppelin etc, but I like hearing a good recording dance track on hd800 as well.The speed and effortless of hd800 (and the bass of hd800 go deep, deeper than my old lcd2) make listening to good dance track very enjoyable. Bad dance recording, it's not painful, but not engaging at all (few Madonna album).

I did go great length to remove the treble peak of my setup (which I heard on both th900 a bit and hd800 a lot) which include rolling interconnect, adding custom linear supply on my converter and usb port etc. Also, removing all those noisy wallwarts (phone charger etc) around my listening area. These smoothen my setup and bring deep bass according to my ears.
post #8434 of 9637
Yes, I did try Anax 2.0 around 2 months ago, but it seem to reduce the air around the instrument and vocal so I removed it. Hopefully there will be an improvement on Anax 3.0 (supposed to be release soon?).

I think I made slightly incorrect statement regarding the treble peak. I actually don't mind that treble peak, but the extra harshness that come from jitter (maybe?) and all noise from phone charger (I can even hear it when my daughter suddenly charge her iphone next door) make that treble peak harsh and sharp to my ears. But once that extra harshness (and sharpness) eliminated, I like the treble presentation of hd800.
post #8435 of 9637
Quote:
Originally Posted by Danz03 View Post


If I did a dance track mix with my reference speaker monitors, listening to it through my LCD-2 would give me a very similar sounding representation, whereas with the HD800, it can be almost unlistenable, with too much highs and too little bass. With acoustic mixes, I find the HD800 would enchance the reverb, as if I've used more reverb than I actually did, probably explains why most people love the soundstage of the hd800. Another thing it exaggerates is noise, any minute background noise or artifacts become inescapable, which might be a good thing or a bad thing depends on how you look at it. Lots of pop music weren't mixed so perfectly, even with big budget projects like Adele and Celine Dion's, and those mistakes or artifacts weren't meant to be heard, but HD800 would show them to you like a sore thumb. On the other hand, you can hear a lot more details that you weren't able to hear with other headphones.
=

Another great post from you. I actually have experience mixing with the HD800 and what you have said is true. Too much bass is the result of the low quantity that the HD800 presents. It simply does not excel in the bass-heavy genres, and I cannot enjoy that kind of music with the HD800.

 

I've recently tried mixing with the LCD-3. Whilst the sound stage is a lot smaller when compared to the HD800, the separation is good enough for me to distinguish the overall 3D landscape. The thing where the LCD-3 really does wonders is the bass approximation and when I transfer the mixes to speakers, they aren't exaggerated as they were with the HD800. This is the reason why many EDM producers are using Audeze headphones for production (Madeon, Dilon Francis, Knife Party, Dada Life, the list goes on).

post #8436 of 9637
Quote:
Originally Posted by Danz03 View Post

Don't think there's such a thing as bad dance recordings, more to do with trends. In the 60s and 70s, disco music were mixed with much less bass, as 12"/33 and 7"/45 vinyls just could't deliver huge amount of low frequencies without eating up play time. In the 80s, when 12" singles became popular, it's possible to have better sounding reproduction with more low frequencies, and with CDs in the 90s, the lower frequencies are much less of a problem. Nowadays, with all those mastering plugins like brick wall limiters and maximizers, it is possible to have ridiculous amount of low frequencies with almost no dynamic range.

If I did a dance track mix with my reference speaker monitors, listening to it through my LCD-2 would give me a very similar sounding representation, whereas with the HD800, it can be almost unlistenable, with too much highs and too little bass. With acoustic mixes, I find the HD800 would enchance the reverb, as if I've used more reverb than I actually did, probably explains why most people love the soundstage of the hd800. Another thing it exaggerates is noise, any minute background noise or artifacts become inescapable, which might be a good thing or a bad thing depends on how you look at it. Lots of pop music weren't mixed so perfectly, even with big budget projects like Adele and Celine Dion's, and those mistakes or artifacts weren't meant to be heard, but HD800 would show them to you like a sore thumb. On the other hand, you can hear a lot more details that you weren't able to hear with other headphones.

I think whoever designed the HD800 intended for them to be used with acoustic music, classical or jazz, and not hip hop and dance, and give an enchanted rather than an accurate sounding experience, a bit like making it sound more nature and live-like than it actually is. Whereas the LCD-2 are more accurate than enjoyable to listen to, the LCD-3 are somewhere in between. I'm sure if someone were to equalized the bass response of the LCD-3 to something similar to HD800, they would probably sound quite similar.

I did try a mod on my hd800 before, it did change the sound signature a little but it also took away what's special about them in the first place, especially the wide soundstage.

I also enjoy listening to rock with HD800. love how ACDC sounds on it. It's not LCD3 enjoyable but still very high for me. The pairing of HD800 with the amplifier and the source is very important as I said before. 

 

Yes, LCD3/2 may be more enjoyable with some music genres, but I cannot say HD800 is not listenable as I do enjoy them with HD800 too.

 

However, I agree that there are some recordings I cannot listen to, as HD800 reveals the quality of the recording.

 

Another thing is that with HD800 you can hear your system as it is, especially the source and some sources bring details in front in an unnatural way.

 

I know it may be hard to believe, as I had the same opinions of it as you do now before getting to really know HD800 with  good pairings.

 

However Audeze is kind of the best you can get bass wise out there and it is a delight in this department.


Edited by dan.gheorghe - 10/28/13 at 3:03am
post #8437 of 9637
Quote:
Originally Posted by Danz03 View Post

Depends on the type of music you're listening to, try some hip hop or dance with the hd800 you'll know what I mean, no amp in this world can make them sound right, you just won't get the thump. With acoustic music, it seems like the lack of bass and the extra brightness don't really matter that much, in fact, they add details and enhance the soundstage.

 

Plenty of 'thump' and 'impact' with my pair.

I don't listen to hip hop or dance but rock and metal sound excellent, including the bass. I certainly don't require any more bass impact, depth, speed or PRaT.  :D

post #8438 of 9637

The problem is the accuracy of the bass in the HD800. HD800 is not neutral and it shows. LCD-2/3 have great accuracy when it comes to bass but do not match the treble + detail extraction of the HD800.

post #8439 of 9637

Fun fact: Stax SR009 also has this problem.

post #8440 of 9637
Quote:
Originally Posted by dukeskd View Post
 

Fun fact: Stax SR009 also has this problem.

 

I was quite surprised how good the SR009 bass is. When it's called for it slams hard and deep. One wouldn't get this impression reading a lot of the comments on Head-Fi. As an Audeze and HD800 owner, I think the SR009 has surprisingly good bass, which more importantly integrates really well in the frequency response without drawing attention to itself when not needed. Unlike Audeze (LCD-3s less so than the LCD-2s, because of their comparative overall signatures). I love the LCD-3s sound and all that, but I don't think they are the most accurate representation of sound.

 

Also again surprinsingly I did not find the SR009s as bright as the HD800s in their average stock experience. But it should be considered the HD800s can be tweaked (tube amp, Anax mod, aftermarket cables) to actually sound slightly warm. Many times this also boosts the bass presence. This is probably the reason for many conflicting opinions, as the HD800s very much allow for this "chameleon" behaviour. 


Edited by negura - 10/28/13 at 4:50am
post #8441 of 9637
Quote:
Originally Posted by negura View Post
 

 

I was quite surprised how good the SR009 bass is. One wouldn't get this impression reading a lot of the comments on Head-Fi. As an Audeze and HD800 owner, I think the SR009 has surprisingly good bass, which more importantly integrates really well in the frequency response without drawing attention to itself when not needed. Unlike Audeze. I love the LCD-3s sound and all that, but I don't think they are the most accurate representation of sound.

 

Also again surprinsingly I did not find the SR009s as bright as the HD800s in their average stock experience. But it should be considered the HD800s can be tweaked (tube amp, Anax mod, aftermarket cables) to actually sound slightly warm. Many times this also boosts the bass presence. This is probably the reason for many conflicting opinions, as the HD800s very much allow for this "chameleon" behaviour. 


The 009 bass has great quality to it and is well separated from the midrange and treble. However, there is a roll-off in the ~60hz and lower range (sub-bass) which is quite an issue when you listen to electronica,etc. It is perfect for classical/jazz/acoustic and I actually loved listening to acoustic performances by Elvis Presley on the 009s, it was the best experience I've ever had from a headphone.

post #8442 of 9637
Quote:
Originally Posted by dukeskd View Post
 


The 009 bass has great quality to it and is well separated from the midrange and treble. However, there is a roll-off in the ~60hz and lower range (sub-bass) which is quite an issue when you listen to electronica,etc. It is perfect for classical/jazz/acoustic and I actually loved listening to acoustic performances by Elvis Presley on the 009s, it was the best experience I've ever had from a headphone.

 

I heard the 009s slamming really low and hard, with superb attack and very tight bass. I left very satisfied.

 

I guess what I am ultimately trying to say is that I find with the bass response from any of these headphones very satisfying: LCD-2,3, HD800s (tweaked), SR007MK1, SR009, HE-6. Yes, they have difference texturing, presentations and it's differently integrated etc. What I don't agree with is that any of these headphones somehow have insufficient bass. The question would be: How far can a flagship steer away anyway from reference reproduction before stopping being relevant as a top end hi-fi experience?

post #8443 of 9637
Quote:
Originally Posted by dukeskd View Post
 

The problem is the accuracy of the bass in the HD800. HD800 is not neutral and it shows. LCD-2/3 have great accuracy when it comes to bass but do not match the treble + detail extraction of the HD800.

 

How does it show?

post #8444 of 9637
Quote:
Originally Posted by nigeljames View Post
 

 

How does it show?

When you transport your mixes to speakers.

post #8445 of 9637
Quote:
Originally Posted by dukeskd View Post
 

When you transport your mixes to speakers.

 

Is that not the same as with all other phones as well. The LCD's don't do bass like speakers either IMO.

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