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post #6091 of 7128

I find most SS amps to sound similar (if they have a similar output gain, for dynamic drivers), especially after you start hitting the three-figured price bracket. 

 

Some have some neat features, but overall I don't find the sound to be "night and day" different, unless an amp is doing something drastic. 

post #6092 of 7128
Quote:
Originally Posted by SP Wild View Post
 

 

http://www.innerfidelity.com/images/AllAmpsJuly2013.pdf

 

If I'm not mistaken, all good amplifiers measure flat and neutral.  Or are we going to start nitpicking again?

 

I'm not going to argue that we perceive a tilt in response...from my experience - any tilit is minor compared to the variations from recording to recording.

 

Pick any good amp you prefer, and lets not argue that we have magically transformed the frequency response.  I have my preferences - regardless of what people say...it is still going to be an extremely neutral setup.  Fact.

That can true for solid state amps but good tube amps differ, bro

All those measurements are for solid state amps

post #6093 of 7128
Quote:
Originally Posted by nehcrow View Post
 

That can true for solid state amps but good tube amps differ, bro

All those measurements are for solid state amps

 


I'll rephrase.  All good solid state amps measure flat.  :wink_face:

post #6094 of 7128
Quote:
Originally Posted by SP Wild View Post
 

 


 All good solid state amps measure flat.  :wink_face:

 

Ideally. :wink_face:

post #6095 of 7128
Is it the same with dac ??

With a pc set up, I've an asus essence st and ss amp (lake people) and still want to improve the sound a bit, would it be worth to replace the sound card with some usb dac (with xlr) ???
post #6096 of 7128
Quote:
Originally Posted by TontonJoK View Post

Is it the same with dac ??

With a pc set up, I've an asus essence st and ss amp (lake people) and still want to improve the sound a bit, would it be worth to replace the sound card with some usb dac (with xlr) ???

 

Yes, all good dacs ideally will measure flat also.

 

When people pay more for their gear, generally speaking, the get better refinement and subtleties.  Tightening of the bass, more depth to the sound.

 

IME the LCD2s act like a microscope, and should you choose to listen to difference in gears, the LCD2 delivers.  With a decent amp - I think you will hear a better sound with a next level dac - up from your sound card, which IMO are at the lowest rung of hi-fi.

 

What these upgrades will never do, is change the overall tonal balance of any headphone.

post #6097 of 7128
Ok thanks, do you have a dac suggestion to get a good synergy with lcd2's
post #6098 of 7128
Quote:
Originally Posted by White Lotus View Post
 

I find most SS amps to sound similar (if they have a similar output gain, for dynamic drivers), especially after you start hitting the three-figured price bracket. 

 

Some have some neat features, but overall I don't find the sound to be "night and day" different, unless an amp is doing something drastic. 

 

This is my experience, as well. 

post #6099 of 7128
Quote:
Originally Posted by TontonJoK View Post

Ok thanks, do you have a dac suggestion to get a good synergy with lcd2's

 

Magni/modi stack is reportedly a very strong contender with the LCD2, and it won't destroy your wallet. 

post #6100 of 7128
May be the Modi alone ??

Do you think it will be an upgrade from asus essence sound card ?? (would be great for my wallet indeed !!!)

My amp is not very popular in the US (it's a german pro amp) but the g100 is compared to the violectric v100 built by lake people also
(not sure the magni would beat it in term of flat response measurement and power)
Edited by TontonJoK - 2/17/14 at 6:03am
post #6101 of 7128
Quote:
Originally Posted by TontonJoK View Post

May be the Modi alone ??

Do you think it will be an upgrade from asus essence sound card ?? (would be great for my wallet indeed !!!)

My amp is not very popular in the US (it's a german pro amp) but the g100 is compared to the violectric v100 built by lake people also
(not sure the magni would beat it in term of flat response measurement and power)

 

You've already got 2 headamps.  The G100 is rated at 1.8 watts at 40 ohms - not bad.  It was compared with the likes of the Lehmann Black cube.  When I had that amp with the LCD2s - I started to hear very noticeable improvements with dacs - dacs start to become more relevant with the LCD2s transparency.

 

For instance I went from a wallwart powered dacmagic to the Bryston BDA1 which I forked over 3.2K cash in australia.  This was when I had the HD650 - and felt the improvements were minimal.  Then I got the LCD2 and I got rid of the dacmagic and went on a DAC hunt again.  The Bryston started to show its superiority very convincingly with the LCD2.

 

I think you should save and go for the best dac you could afford.  At the very least - a dac that is not wallwart powered and have its own stiff power supply.  No doubt your computer soundcard is your weakest link right now.


Edited by SP Wild - 2/17/14 at 8:51am
post #6102 of 7128
Bryston BDA1 is almost 1.5 times my complete set up, a very good piece of audio !!

Sorry for my bad English but "a dac that is not wallwart powered and have its own stiff power supply"

Do you mean a dac powered by usb but not one with a simple wall socket or may be a power supply like on the musical fidelity xcan v3 ??? confused.gif

edit : wall wart ok I see now what this is rolleyes.gif un adaptateur secteur !!!! tongue.gif
Edited by TontonJoK - 2/17/14 at 11:43am
post #6103 of 7128
Quote:
Originally Posted by TontonJoK View Post

Bryston BDA1 is almost 2 times my complete set up, a very good piece of audio !!

Sorry for my bad English but "a dac that is not wallwart powered and have its own stiff power supply"

Do you mean a dac powered by usb but not one with a wall socket ??? confused.gif

 

IMHO a dac that is USB powered would be worse than a wall wart dac.  Lets start with Schiit and I think they call it the Bi-frost...a little more in line with your good amp.  With the LCD2s it becomes a money pit...the better engineered product you buy - the better the LCD2s will sound.

 

In my DIY adventures, I hit a limit with the HD800 in checking circuit speed...the LCD2s then took over.  :wink_face:

post #6104 of 7128
ok got you biggrin.gif
post #6105 of 7128
Quote:
Originally Posted by SP Wild View Post
 

 

http://www.innerfidelity.com/images/AllAmpsJuly2013.pdf

 

If I'm not mistaken, all good amplifiers measure flat and neutral.  Or are we going to start nitpicking again?

 

I'm not going to argue that we perceive a tilt in response...from my experience - any tilit is minor compared to the variations from recording to recording.

 

Pick any good amp you prefer, and lets not argue that we have magically transformed the frequency response.  I have my preferences - regardless of what people say...it is still going to be an extremely neutral setup.  Fact.

 

Ok I'll break this down into a few summarized dot points.

 

I'm don't care about your preference, everybody has one, I'm fine with that. Try not to mix your personal opinion with stated objectivity and present it as truth and fact.

 

Your original statement, "all good amplifiers measure flat" and then you point out Tylls measurements is a bit ambiguous. Any properly engineered amplifier with a full sine wave sweep over a certain bandwidth should measure flat but this doesn't translate to a flat sounding amplifier, apples and bananas. Another thing is there are no loads above 150ohm tested for THD distortion (which is a meaningless distortion measurement to present any distortion measured below 0.05%). 

 

Another thing is synergy and FR measured from when the transducers are connected to the amplifier. Different headphones/different amp's connected to each other with measured FR will give variations (one stupid golden example is Joe from JPS telling Tyll to use the EF-6 to power the Abyss when measurements made off another amp was poor). Different load, different amplification but not night and day difference. Synergy on the other hand exists, I know you don't like the HD800, but try listening to the HD800's off a Mojo off a Benchmark DAC1.

 

The last thing to throw in is subjectivity, I can put forth $100 and say that more than 70% of headfi'ers don't know how to translate FR, CSD plots and technical discussions on specifics of sound and don't really care for objectivity and mainly rely on reviews, so before you post a response to this, subjectivity is a large driving factor anything acoustics be it speakers or headphones or IEM's.

Again I will go back to my original post of good sounding amplifier's can measure bad (harmonic distortion from some tube amplifiers, basic Class A no hybrid or SS designs) and good measuring amplifiers can sound bad, for example. Some here with the experience and ownership of high end, TOTL gear and have heard the O2 will agree the O2 is garbage sounding amplifier despite it having a boosting minimal level of THD distortion (meaningless below 0.05% because we can't hear anything below that). Case in point as to why I'am calling it a garbage sounding amplifier? Well if you've read and been around long enough to follow the dispute, arguments and laid out facts, myths and ego presented from nwavguy, he claimed that O2 will wipe most if not all 10x, 100x, 1000x, 10000x more priced amplifiers when it comes to absolute neutrality and perfect measurement, purrin and anax did a comparison between the Modi and the O2 and preferred the Modi by a fair margin. Subjectivity at it's best. 

 

Last thing is, a good designed/engineered amplifier should measure cleanly (not neutral or flat, almost all amplifiers will measure flat otherwise it won't be a production unit, amplifiers amplify source line out signal neutral and flat is a description for transducers or when powering transducers from amplifiers). 

 

The same with DAC's and just to prove subjectivity at it's best again, the Benchmark DAC1 and DAC2 as the name implies are literally the benchmark when it comes to absolute measured flat/cleanliness, but I've heard it and so has the next average Joe and it is not that great sounding but it also depends on what amplifier and headphone I've driving at the end of the chain (synergy at play). Sometimes studio grade equipment can sound crap compared to less than stellar measured "audiophile" product.

 

My worthwhile 2c and yes it is a very complex discussion to try and down into layman definition.


Edited by DefQon - 2/18/14 at 2:32am
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