DAC Confusion...need help fast, from someone with experience!!! :O - Page 2

Quote:

Originally Posted by bobeau 

Have to step in here - recently owned both the Anedio D1 and the EE Minimax and have a maxxed WA6SE and a DNA Sonett.  I sold both Saber DACs, really did not jive with what I was looking for, which for the most part seems similar to the OP, r2r or r2r type sound.  I posted a few impressions going into further detail in the Anedio thread while I still had the Anedio.

 

Out of the choices above, I'd say go for the Rega.  You can easily find lightly used ones on Audiogon for ~$800.  It's pretty much a known entity and can be easily flipped if it's not to your liking.  I just picked up a Metrum Octave and like it quite a bit w/ my Woo.

 

??? what exactly are you stepping in on? stepping in on an opinion to give what? a superior opinion? ha

Uh, I'm not sure whether the Rega will be a good pairing or not for OP's needs since he is specifically using it for WA6SE and HD650. It's already a warm-sounding combination and paired with an equally warm-sounding DAC, it can rob too much from attack and clarity. 

OP, what's your budget for the DAC? 

Please let us know what you think of the PS Audio.  I used to own Senn 650s and do believe they will sound great with the Woo amp.  As for Sabre dacs, they can sound different.  For example the Eastern Electric sounded like it had a smile response with tipped up warm bass and tipped highs, with a slightly recessed mid.  The Wryed for sound dac2 sounded relatively flat with good detail and tight bass.  I did hear the Musical fidelity with the Senn 650s and was not that impressed,  a little hifi sounding esp in the highs.  I have not heard the Rega dac but did like their flagship cd player.

If I were looking for something that would be good with dub type music I would look for a dac that was fairly detailed and somewhat analytical in the bass to match with the woo.  This so it does not get too thick and hard to follow bass lines, also so the reverb detail.  Are you a Bill Laswell fan?  Love the Radioaxom cd with Jah Wobble.

For Me I like my Blue Circle BC-509 since it has lots of power supply filtering and presents a neutral response with good deep solid bass.  And as other have said here some of the differences can be minor between dac in this range, but if you r system is capable you will hear it.  Please let us know what your impressions are after you try the PS and Musical Fidelity.

EDIt:  How are you going to get the signal from the pc to the dac and what player will you be using?

Quote:

Originally Posted by K3cT 

Uh, I'm not sure whether the Rega will be a good pairing or not for OP's needs since he is specifically using it for WA6SE and HD650. It's already a warm-sounding combination and paired with an equally warm-sounding DAC, it can rob too much from attack and clarity. 

 

OP, what's your budget for the DAC? 

The WA6SE is fairly neutral by tube amp standards.  But of course that sound can be altered quite a bit by rolling.  And from what I can ascertain the Rega is regarded as being pretty neutral, but analog sounding, which are not mutually exclusive traits.  Analog sounding as in not a detail-meister, smoother transients, but not unbalanced in the presentation.  if its warm as all its just a slight push.

The OP already stated she doesn't want something analytical.  And people are throwing out Saber DACs which I think is a mistake for someone looking to avoid that (granted, I understand the WFS might be better comapred to the ones I tried).   Of course this is just one opinion, but coming from someone who's made this mistake twice now.  And running Edition8s and W1000xs, which are also cans with a bit of a warm push.

good point Bobeau, perhaps neutral is what would work best.  I'll withdraw the somewhat analytical rec in my post above and replace with neutral bass, one that is not artificially warmed up.  and FWI - I would not consider a sabre based dac personally based on what some designers have told me about trying to get it to sound natural, but some people like them and that is their choice I suppose.

Quote:

Originally Posted by bixby 

good point Bobeau, perhaps neutral is what would work best.  I'll withdraw the somewhat analytical rec in my post above and replace with neutral bass, one that is not artificially warmed up.  and FWI - I would not consider a sabre based dac personally based on what some designers have told me about trying to get it to sound natural, but some people like them and that is their choice I suppose.

Exactly - the problem I had with the Sabre DACs I tried is although very impressive technically, they had some showstoppers for my taste... which tends toward the analogue side of things.  Specifically I felt there was a lack of PRaT/slam, an politeness about the tone that I felt disconnected emotionally from the music, and something wonky going on in the mids.  Guitars sounded too thin and female voices sounded off.  It didn't sound particularly bright, definitely was a nicely balanced tone, but my perception of lack of body due to the mids had me routinely turning up the volume to the point where I was getting fatigue after long listening sessions.  Bass and lower mids were taught and snappy but not particularly present.  It was frustrating, I wanted to warm to this presentation because it's technically the best performing chip out there, I thought perhaps the issues I perceived with top sigma delta DACs like the Benchmark I listened to many years had been rectified over the years.  To me, the Anedio sounded like pro audio gear, I felt like I was listening to pick apart the music, not to enjoy it.  Music felt at arms length.  Even through my tube amps.  It seemed the same general character was showing regardless what I hooked up to it.  The funny thing is I actually liked it best through the headphone out... felt like a good tube amp was just mucking up its mission, so to speak.

I've read every single post in the Anedio thread and most in the Rega thread.  I might be crazy, but its seems most Anedio owners are either using the built-in amp or outboard solid state amps, while there are quite a few people with Rega thread using tube amps.  

Dubstep Girl,

You might want to consider this: http://www.head-fi.org/t/573377/audio-gd-dac-19-dsp1v5

More info w/ links to head-fi threads: http://www.audio-gd.com/Pro/dac/DAC19/DAC19EN.htm

Audio-GD is pretty highly regarded for their multibit designs, probably in the neighborhood soundwise of the Rega but possibly better as far as extension at both ends + resolution.  They no longer sell DACs with the highly regarded Burr-Brown PCM1704UK because the chip is no longer made.  Their current mid-grade DACs use higher end versions of the chip used in the Rega.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dubstep Girl 

700-1200

 

im gonna listen to the ps audio iii and the musical fidelity m1 today, im thinking the m1 if it can be agreed that a warm DAC + warm Tubes will be too much for the 650.

 

 

so yeha i want a high quality thats musical fun detailed while still maintaining some degree of warmth + good bass response. something that will make phones like the akg and grados shine  while still preserving that warm deep sound of hd 650s (i plan on upgrading to lcd-2 soon, they of course are similar to hd 650 in terms of sound signature)

I would have recommended the Reference 1 in the sales forum within that budget. I haven't heard it but if it shares similar DNA with its older brother, the Reference 7.1, then it's going to be pretty awesome. With proper implementation, soundstage and ambience are the PCM1704's real strengths which the REF 7.1 displays in spades. 

Quote:

Originally Posted by bobeau 

 

The WA6SE is fairly neutral by tube amp standards.  But of course that sound can be altered quite a bit by rolling.  And from what I can ascertain the Rega is regarded as being pretty neutral, but analog sounding, which are not mutually exclusive traits.  Analog sounding as in not a detail-meister, smoother transients, but not unbalanced in the presentation.  if its warm as all its just a slight push.

 

The OP already stated she doesn't want something analytical.  And people are throwing out Saber DACs which I think is a mistake for someone looking to avoid that (granted, I understand the WFS might be better comapred to the ones I tried).   Of course this is just one opinion, but coming from someone who's made this mistake twice now.  And running Edition8s and W1000xs, which are also cans with a bit of a warm push.

I have heard the combination although with a different DAC and an after-market cable for the HD650 (Cardas IIRC) and I stand by what I said that it's definitely a warm-sounding combination no doubt contributed by the fact that the HD650 itself is already tilted towards warmth and the WA6SE although neutral-sounding does have a warmth in its midrange and treble. Lovely combination I have to admit. 

Yeah, I agree with your misgivings towards the Sabre DACs. I haven't heard the Wyred and Anedio units but I have heard the Twisted Pear Buffalo32 and Buffalo II and frankly despite their immense technical merits, I detect some tonal issues. Everything simply sounds very dry and bright with them. Not musical at all. 

I'm surprised you didn't recommend your Metrum Acoustics unit as it fits the OP's budget, bobeau. 

Glad you found a dac that you like, the DL3 is a nice sounding dac especially for the money.  $499 is a very good price.

Quote:

Originally Posted by K3cT 

I have heard the combination although with a different DAC and an after-market cable for the HD650 (Cardas IIRC) and I stand by what I said that it's definitely a warm-sounding combination no doubt contributed by the fact that the HD650 itself is already tilted towards warmth and the WA6SE although neutral-sounding does have a warmth in its midrange and treble. Lovely combination I have to admit. 

 

I'm surprised you didn't recommend your Metrum Acoustics unit as it fits the OP's budget, bobeau. 

I'll admit I have little experience with the 650, only heard it on a couple occasions many years ago, though I've seen 650/WA6SE combo recommended several times.  The 6SE does change dramatically with tubes... put in some 6de7s w/ a philips gz34 and its a bit ice-pick-in-yer-ear :)

For someone newer to this hobby I tend to recommend only purchasing used stuff as it's easy to experiment with and provides minimal hit to the wallet in case things don't work out.  

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dubstep Girl 

 

hey everyone, thanks for all your suggestions/input.

 

i listened to the PS Audio Digital Link III and LOVED IT!!! 

That's a great classic DAC at a great price, enjoy   They're pretty popular to mod as well, down the road might want to look at that, at least a company or two that offers mod pacakages for these DACs. 

bobeau: you are describing problems with the analogue stage of the implementations you owned, having spent a LOT of time with it, seeing many fft plots and pairing it with myriad combinations of components; ascribing what you do to the sabre dac chip itself is pure fantasy. its a very difficult chip to get the analogue stage right for and is particularly picky with power supply quality and strangely considering the pll and jitter rejection; the quality of digital input. the filter scheme, clock and reference grounding is particularly important.

i could see the D1 having too much of a razors edge, perhaps a little fragile for what yo describe as your taste, i know not a lot of the EE, but tubes and the sabre just dont mix as far as IV/output, too many issues with high impedance/low transconductance unless the tube is just used as a buffer, or cathode follower with solid state input scheme. if the output stage, filter and master clock isnt just right you can end up with a fractured and somewhat hyped sound, get it just right and its worth all the trouble, for me thats a mix of lifepo4 batteries, shunt regulation, synchronous non-oversampled usb-i2s input with the usb and dac run off the same clock and a simple, but fairly high voltage class A discrete mosfet based output stage

above is just my experience/opinion of course, but in my travels i came across some of the troubles you mention and none were the dac chip itself; other than perhaps being guilty of being a bit finnicky to get set up just right. I own hd600 and love them, i have heard the woo 6SE a number of times with them, I dont think more tubes is a good idea, but hey, sounds like the op is sorted anyway and under budget

I think the D1 is using op-amps to do I/V and for the analog output. Someone posted the internals before here.