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Turntables, looking for tips and suggestions

post #1 of 29
10/1/11 at 12:59pm
Thread Starter 
Hey guys,

I recently got interested in vinyl. Right away, just to note, I'm not interested in dropping a grand into a turn table. I simply have some questions, because frankly, vinyl just may not be for me. But maybe I'm just not doing things right or had different expectations. Basically, I don't plan on buying a lot of vinyls. I only want to be able to buy albums that are incredible to me, and would like to have a small collection of my absolute most favorite albums which will be quite limited and less than 50 total albums, more like not even 25 albums at best. That said, it could explode should I suddenly love the sound, but I doubt it due to cost.

I picked up an inexpensive piece of junk turntable, the AudioTechnica AT-LP60 and two of my favorite records in 180gram thick form. I love those thick records, they look like they'll live as long as I will if taken care of.

I played through speakers and it sounded good. No issues really. I could hear little pops and clicks, but it wasn't painfully obvious. In headphones, oh my god, obvious. Like, I don't even want to listen to it if it's just going to pop & click. Granted, it's not that bad. I've heard some old messed up records and they sounded like some finger nails on chalkboard. A clean vinyl sounded clear though, it was nice. But on headphones, I can definitely hear a click and a pop now and then. Otherwise, it sounds pretty good. It definitely doesn't seem as warm and full as my digital recordings. But I'm not sure if that's the crappy turn table, and what's involved there, or what.

So do higher end turn tables basically not have this? Can you listen to vinyls on headphones without hearing a bump each time a not perfectly straight record turns, pops and clicks, etc? How high do you have to go in budget to get something that doesn't just sound like an absolute mess through a pair of headphones? This is why vinyl simply may not be for me. As it seems incredibly expensive and I'm not quite convinced that the sound is superior or anything to a digital high resolution recording.

Thoughts?

Very best,
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post #2 of 29
10/1/11 at 3:50pm

The point of a turntable today is to digitize LP's to get their content into the computer library, and perhaps reduce pops or other distractions.

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post #3 of 29
10/1/11 at 5:15pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by sterling1 View Post

The point of a turntable today is to digitize LP's to get their content into the computer library, and perhaps reduce pops or other distractions.


No.

The point of a turntable is to listen to records. I may digitize a few some day, but I'm content to listen to LPs as they were intended to be played. You'll find that the overwhelming amount of vinyl listeners feel the same.

As to the OP, yes, a good turntable set up correctly and playing clean vinyl in good condition sounds wonderful. Noise is very low and tolerable.

However, it doesn't sound like you should get into vinyl. If all you want are 50 good recordings, stick with digital. Set up a nice music server or get a nice CD player.

The point of vinyl is to access the huge amount of music that never made it to digital. I don't have a source for the figure, but I read that something like 60% of pre-digital recordings haven't been digitized.

Sixty percent.

That's a lot. If you want to explore music that isn't available otherwise, buy a turntable. You'll love it. You'll find huge amounts of cheap music that will never turn up on CD.

For recordings that are available on digital, I always buy those if they're recorded well. Digital is more convenient and doesn't wear when you play it. But I love junk stores and can always turn up interesting LPs, so the turntable is indispensable.

Do not buy a turntable for "better" sound than digital. A strong case can be made that digital is better, and I'll take SACD over anything. SACD is sensational technology - much more convenient than reel and it doesn't deteriorate like tape. However, vinyl can certainly be good enough. Not as good as some of the best Red Book and SACD recordings, but plenty good enough to have an enjoyable listening session. Combine that with the massive catalog of vinyl-only recordings, and I think the format is worthwhile.
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post #4 of 29
10/1/11 at 6:23pm

Agree with Uncle Erik. The purpose behind buying a turntable is to listen to vinyl not to archive.

 

If you are going to just listen to a few you have to ask yourself if it is worth the money. My primary system is vinyl because I enjoy it. If you are just wanting to dabble in it and yoiu are leaning toward digital stick with SACD.

 

You don't have to spend a lot to get a decent turntable.

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post #5 of 29
10/1/11 at 11:44pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Uncle Erik View Post

No.
The point of a turntable is to listen to records. I may digitize a few some day, but I'm content to listen to LPs as they were intended to be played. You'll find that the overwhelming amount of vinyl listeners feel the same.
As to the OP, yes, a good turntable set up correctly and playing clean vinyl in good condition sounds wonderful. Noise is very low and tolerable.
However, it doesn't sound like you should get into vinyl. If all you want are 50 good recordings, stick with digital. Set up a nice music server or get a nice CD player.
The point of vinyl is to access the huge amount of music that never made it to digital. I don't have a source for the figure, but I read that something like 60% of pre-digital recordings haven't been digitized.
Sixty percent.
That's a lot. If you want to explore music that isn't available otherwise, buy a turntable. You'll love it. You'll find huge amounts of cheap music that will never turn up on CD.
For recordings that are available on digital, I always buy those if they're recorded well. Digital is more convenient and doesn't wear when you play it. But I love junk stores and can always turn up interesting LPs, so the turntable is indispensable.
Do not buy a turntable for "better" sound than digital. A strong case can be made that digital is better, and I'll take SACD over anything. SACD is sensational technology - much more convenient than reel and it doesn't deteriorate like tape. However, vinyl can certainly be good enough. Not as good as some of the best Red Book and SACD recordings, but plenty good enough to have an enjoyable listening session. Combine that with the massive catalog of vinyl-only recordings, and I think the format is worthwhile.

Wow! Never even thought of that, thats probably why (cough, cough on discography torrents they have unreleased songs). Thats where that comes from.
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post #6 of 29
10/20/11 at 2:13pm

To the OP's post, a higher end TT won't help get rid of those pops and clicks.  A record cleaner will, however.  I use a VPI HW-16.5, but that goes well beyond what you're looking for. I've read good things about the Spin Clean Record Washer, which can be had for around $75.  Either way, if you are interested in getting into vinyl, some sort of record cleaning machine is a must.

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post #7 of 29
10/20/11 at 2:23pm

Yes, OP needs to clean his records.  Unless there's something drastically wrong with his turntable or stylus, the pops and clicks are probably due to dust and lint in the grooves.  A used Technics SL-1200 (that hasn't been thrashed in a club or by a wannabe turntablist) is a great place to start.  Built like a tank, and I prefer direct-drive over belt.

 

After a proper cleaning, none of my new records have excessive popping.  Older ones, unfortunately, inevitably do.  Should read up on the care and maintenance of vinyl records.


Edited by Elysian - 10/20/11 at 2:24pm
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post #8 of 29
10/21/11 at 10:07am

Time to bust out the wood glue.

 

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post #9 of 29
10/21/11 at 12:06pm

Records, even brand new ones, need to be cleaned before being played.  

 

But also, if you don't know the story on the cartridge / stylus, as in if it is any good, then the records could be great but still sound like crap AND you might be wrecking the records by playing them if the stylus is worn.  

 

Where did the turntable come from?  Even cheap TTs can sound very good IF they have a new cartridge/stylus AND are properly set up.  I heard a $100 Technics and a $40 Grado cartridge sound awesome a while back - so it doesn't have to cost a lot.  But there are a few basic things that have to be done to have vinyl sound good.

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post #10 of 29
10/22/11 at 4:35am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Uncle Erik View Post

Do not buy a turntable for "better" sound than digital. A strong case can be made that digital is better, and I'll take SACD over anything. SACD is sensational technology - much more convenient than reel and it doesn't deteriorate like tape. However, vinyl can certainly be good enough. Not as good as some of the best Red Book and SACD recordings, but plenty good enough to have an enjoyable listening session. Combine that with the massive catalog of vinyl-only recordings, and I think the format is worthwhile.


Yeah but, how many recordings have been mastered or remastered natively in DSD?

 

 

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post #11 of 29
10/22/11 at 4:39am

Another question that fits the thread I think:

 

talking about money, at which point returns start to be diminishing?

 

I've been told around that with less than 400€ you can actually get an "enough" TT, made by Pro-Ject for instance (those are made in Europe).

 

Do you agree?

 

(FYK, a Rega P3 and a Technics SL1200 here cost sth less than 700€)

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post #12 of 29
10/22/11 at 6:33am

My personal opinion is that you can buy a good vintage TT for $300 or less that will sound killer.  IF you either know how to set up cartridges, know someone that doesn't, or are willing to learn, this can be the way to go.  I own a high end TT (a VPI ScoutMaster with Benz LP-S), but I recently bought a Pioneer PL-530 for $200. Slapped a $65 Shure M97xE on it, and it sounds KILLER.  All the vinyl playback most people will ever need.

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post #13 of 29
10/22/11 at 10:26am

Skylab is correct.  Unless you're a hardcore audiophile, $250-500 can get you a great turntable.  You want to make sure that the drive system is still perfect, and that there isn't functional damage to the parts, like a wobbling platter.  This is a good place to read up: http://www.soundexchangehouston.com/table/table.html

 

Expect to drop $50-100 for a good stylus.  I like the elliptical Ortofon stylus, and feel ellipticals are much better than sphericals for just listening to music.  Shure also makes great styluses.

 

Anyway, with the turntable, you want to make sure it works well and that there's no funny business going on, as even a slight aberrence will be picked up by a good ear and will be annoying.  After that, the stylus is very important because that's what picks up the sound from the record grooves.  Last but not least, you need to be very disciplined about cleaning your records, keeping them stacked vertically, away from dust/sunlight/dustmites/pets/etc., for a number of reasons.  A clean record will playback best and have the least wear and tear, as a stylus dragging lint through your grooves will damage the grooves very fast (particularly for an elliptical stylus).  You want to avoid getting oil from your hands on the records, and make sure they are stored properly (out of sunlight, vertically, packed well so they're not leaning to the side) so they don't warp over time.

 

Rega P3 and Technics SL1200 are both great turntables.  I have 3 SL1200s.  I honestly do not think you will hear much of a difference from either one.  Just get a good stylus, get a preamp/amp with a great phonostage, and most importantly, take care of your records!


Edited by Elysian - 10/22/11 at 10:27am
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post #14 of 29
10/22/11 at 4:20pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Elysian View Post

Skylab is correct.  Unless you're a hardcore audiophile, $250-500 can get you a great turntable.  You want to make sure that the drive system is still perfect, and that there isn't functional damage to the parts, like a wobbling platter.  This is a good place to read up: http://www.soundexchangehouston.com/table/table.html

 

 

Rega P3 and Technics SL1200 are both great turntables.  I have 3 SL1200s.  I honestly do not think you will hear much of a difference from either one.  Just get a good stylus, get a preamp/amp with a great phonostage, and most importantly, take care of your records!



These are great tips! 

 

How much would you put for a decent standalone phono stage?

I've seen some barebone MM prephono stages at 50€ ...

 

I wonder if they're enough or if they're worth a listen compared to the "entry level" stages by well-known brands such as Lehmann or Graham Slee. 

 

 

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post #15 of 29
10/22/11 at 4:46pm

The ones from phonopreamps.com are quite good for the very low prices they charge.  I tried two and was impressed by both for the money.

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