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** Confessions of a Failing Audiophile ** - I hated the LCD2 - Page 38  

post #556 of 631

 

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by SP Wild View Post

 

Are you sure that the good 30 hz square response is purely because of flatness from 10hz to 1 khz?  Even within a perfect 30 hz square wave, there are countless frequency contents that contribute to this response - closer to infinity.

 

A square wave consists of the sum of the fundamental frequency and successive odd order harmonics in decreasing magnitude. The fundamental, third, and fifth harmonics are have a large influence on the square shape. Slight changes in phase will mess up the squareness of the wave. In other words, it doesn't measure flatness of FR.

 

Square waves are good for seeing slew, overshoot, damping, and ringing. The related step-response is valuable for tuning crossovers and time-aligning multiple drivers. Other than that, square waves can also be used for masturbating to how good looking they are, especially if their form really fits to the ideal.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by rhythmdevils View Post

Send him your LCD-2rev2!  Someone needs to send them to him to get measurements....

 

Yup. That usually helps. No one is going to see r2 plots unless someone sends me a pair. I can turn them around in a day or two if you need them back ASAP.
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by SP Wild View Post

Lets just say I cannot correlate how a headphone's overall tonal balance is by a CSD or impulse response graph.  The frequency response graph is generated by a sineweep, one frequency at a time by Tyll.  This graph actually measures the entire spectrum - I will purchase or not purchase a head phone according to this graph


I don't correlate a headphone's overall response with Tyll's or Headroom's graphs - they are not necessarily accurate. I will purchase a headphone based on what I hear, not a graph - not even my own graphs.

 

Quote:

... I should have just kept my HD650s and call it a day, because it excelled at CSD, as good as the best.  I have them both here right now - there is no contest.  Tylls other measurements explain the differences I hear between these two.


The HD650s don't necessarily measure better than LCD2 in CSD. They have a slower decay and have some crud at certain frequencies in the way. The LCD2s actually have an overall faster decay, but some with ringing at various frequencies which some people hear and others don't. As I've said, some LCD2s are better than others. The overhead plots are better at showing decay.

 

---

 

BTW - I'm sitting on a quite a bit of data. Just not releasing any results yet.

 


Edited by purrin - 10/20/11 at 11:24pm
post #557 of 631
Quote:
Originally Posted by SP Wild View Post




Very easy to test.  C/O measurements with a high quality EQ and see if we can generate perfect square waves from a headphone with an imperfect one.  From my understanding, the closer we get to the square wave, the closer we are to neutrality.

 

Are you sure that the good 30 hz square response is purely because of flatness from 10hz to 1 khz?  Even within a perfect 30 hz square wave, there are countless frequency contents that contribute to this response - closer to infinity.

 

Anyway this was posted in the science forum.

http://www.physics.mcgill.ca/~moore/P101/Lectures/Lecture-10.pdf

 


Yes, I'm quite sure, by the time we reach 1kHz, we are way past the point where  harmonics really count, at 990 Hz, it's the 33 rd harmonic, and the wight of the harmonics decreases as the order goes up, 1, 1/3, 1/5.... 1/33. IF may calculations correct, the weight of the 33rd harmonic constitutes about 1% of the preceding hamonics.

 

 

post #558 of 631
Quote:
Originally Posted by purrin View Post

A square wave consists of the sum of the fundamental frequency and successive odd order harmonics in decreasing magnitude. The fundamental, third, and fifth harmonics are have a large influence on the square shape. Slight changes in phase will mess up the squareness of the wave. In other words, it doesn't measure flatness of FR.

 

Square waves are good for seeing slew, overshoot, damping, and ringing. The related step-response is valuable for tuning crossovers and time-aligning multiple drivers. Other than that, square waves can also be used for masturbating to how good looking they are, especially if their form really fits to the ideal.


Yes, slight changes in phase will mess up the squareness of the wave, but changing the weigh coefficients of the first harmonics will do so too, when I answered SP Wild, I said 10 to 1000 Hz, but adding the 1 to 9 th harmonic should already give a good approximation of what the square wave looks like, and since a lot of headphones (especially the LCD-2) don't have frequency dependent phase shift in the bass and lower mids, it's often accurate to say that the squareness of a 30 Hz wave tells us about the flatness of the FR.

 

 

post #559 of 631
Quote:
Originally Posted by khaos974 View Post, it's often accurate to say that the squareness of a 30 Hz wave tells us about the flatness of the FR....


Up to a certain range, you said up to the 9th odd harmonic we come up with a good approximation. At 30hz, that's ~270Hz? There's the rest of the spectrum too which doesn't affect it much. Let's face it, the higher harmonics don't have much of an effect.

 

Therefore I'll better clarify what I said, a single square wave doesn't have much to do with FR linearity throughout the entire audible spectrum.

 

Also minor dip of a few db at 90Hz for that said 30Hz square wave would ruin the square shape. Irregularities in FR - say sharp peaks at 2nd harmonic spots wouldn't negatively affect the square wave.

 

As I said, one does not use square waves as a tool to measure frequency response.

 


Edited by purrin - 10/21/11 at 12:27am
post #560 of 631
Quote:
Originally Posted by purrin View Post

 

Other than that, square waves can also be used for masturbating to how good looking they are, especially if their form really fits to the ideal.

 



This is mostly what I use them for.  After using square wave graphs, nothing else really gets me hot anymore.  tongue_smile.gif

post #561 of 631
Quote:
Originally Posted by purrin View Post

Up to a certain range, you said up to the 9th odd harmonic we come up with a good approximation. At 30hz, that's ~270Hz? There's the rest of the spectrum too which doesn't affect it much. Let's face it, the higher harmonics don't have much of an effect.

 

Therefore I'll better clarify what I said, a single square wave doesn't have much to do with FR linearity throughout the entire audible spectrum.

 

A minor dip of a few db at 90Hz for that said 30Hz square wave would ruin the square shape.

 

In other words, one does not use square waves as a tool to measure frequency response.


Of course not, actually, I fond myself in agreement with what you posted, I should have been more precise in answering SP Wild. I merely meant that the flatness of the FR at for the low frequencies is what allowed the LCD-2 to have such a nice square wave response, that there was no link with the brightness of the headphones in question (to me brightness is overemphasis of 2 to 5 kHz, nothing to do with the relevant harmonics of a 30 Hz square wave).

 

However, if one had the full Bode diagram of the the LCD-2 (FR + phase, (for people other than Purrin), or a Black Nichols diagram, one could easily plot out the square wave response without ever measuring it.

 

 


Edited by khaos974 - 10/21/11 at 12:33am
post #562 of 631
Quote:
Originally Posted by rhythmdevils View Post

This is mostly what I use them for.  After using square wave graphs, nothing else really gets me hot anymore.  tongue_smile.gif


There's this other thread "signs you're an audiophile when..."

 

After all, you know what they say about a curve that's damped just right blink.gif

post #563 of 631

Yeah - just didn't want people to get the wrong idea.

 

Lots of people got too excited about the perfect low frequency square waves when they first came out. Of course few really knew what it meant other than it looked good. Too many misconceptions of what various measurements mean here on Head-Fi. It's one of the reasons I am concentrating on generating just one - even though I can generate about a half-dozen more from the impulse responses that I have.

post #564 of 631

Glad you could join in on this discussion, more expertise in this area is always helpful.  redface.gif
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by purrin View Post

 

 

 

A square wave consists of the sum of the fundamental frequency and successive odd order harmonics in decreasing magnitude. The fundamental, third, and fifth harmonics are have a large influence on the square shape. Slight changes in phase will mess up the squareness of the wave. In other words, it doesn't measure flatness of FR.

 

Square waves are good for seeing slew, overshoot, damping, and ringing. The related step-response is valuable for tuning crossovers and time-aligning multiple drivers. Other than that, square waves can also be used for masturbating to how good looking they are, especially if their form really fits to the ideal.

 

Thats what I initially thought, makes logical sense.  Send out a slew rate graph and see how well the transducer can track it.  Then comes this Fourier Transform thingy which looks like heavy maths, and other sources suggesting that it could suggest linearity as well - It does tend to get confusing.  Should we try triangle waves as well?  I wonder.

 

Yup. That usually helps. No one is going to see r2 plots unless someone sends me a pair. I can turn them around in a day or two if you need them back ASAP. 

I don't correlate a headphone's overall response with Tyll's or Headroom's graphs - they are not necessarily accurate. I will purchase a headphone based on what I hear, not a graph - not even my own graphs.

 

Can't argue with you there, that's the best advice anyone can give.  However, I find it a useful tool that correlates well with tonal balance - failing to be able to audition, trusting experienced members and re-confirming with FR graphs helped me make my decision with the LCD2, this worked out well because I have a firm understanding thanks to the use of graphic equalisers.

 

The HD650s don't necessarily measure better than LCD2 in CSD. They have a slower decay and have some crud at certain frequencies in the way. The LCD2s actually have an overall faster decay, but some with ringing at various frequencies which some people hear and others don't. As I've said, some LCD2s are better than others. The overhead plots are better at showing decay.

 

---

 

BTW - I'm sitting on a quite a bit of data. Just not releasing any results yet.

 


Purrin, thanks for clearing a few things up.  This is an exciting time to get into measurements, as these new headphones are getting very expensive and we have members like yourself, Arnaud and Tyll that can scrutinise these cans with an understanding of the science behind them all. 

 

Its great that someone can break through all the hype with real data - especially when its contradictory to the hype.  Obviously I'm slightly biased towards my LCD2 as it is an extremely valuable asset to me.  So I'd rather not see that my headphones measure poorly - I'm well aboard the hype train and seem to really be enjoying its ride to the promised land.

 

post #565 of 631
Thread Starter 

 

In West Cleveland, born and raised.  On the Audio Playground is where I spent most of my days.  Chillin' out maxin' relaxin' all cool and all Amping my headphones outside of the school, when a couple a guys, they were up to no good, said why not buy an Audeze LCD2 dude? I got in one little fight and my mom got scared she said you are done with all these headphones now go outside and get some fresh air! 
 
I whistled for an admin and when he came near, this T shirt said Head Fi Authoritah and he wore an HD 598 on his ears.  If anything I could say this admin was rare, but I thought nah forget, yo homes its Head Fi! 
 
Da nah, na nah, nah, nahhh nah.
 
post #566 of 631

HAHA! Boat load of truth there.  Still that hobbyist/enthusiast in me begs to differ.  The pursuit for perfection, aint comin for cheap.

post #567 of 631

This may sound silly but the reason you may feel this way is because you are used to listening to high fidelity music. Believe it or not, this happened to me before and I thought I was crazy for purchasing the HD 800. When I took a 3 day break and came back I was astonished at the sound quality. Everything was so crisp and detailed unlike the day before when I thought that the sound was like crap and doesn't seem like a 1k headphone. So I advice you take a 3-4 day break from listening to music and prepare to be astonish at the equipment you own when you hear it again.

post #568 of 631
Quote:
Originally Posted by swbf2cheater View Post

Welcome to a month ago :)  I feel much more care free now.  

 

biggrin.gif

 

 

Quote:

 

 I've yet to find anyone willing to tell me what these qualities were for them.  I don't ask in a sarcastic way, I literally ask because I have no idea what the hell they are. It has some mystery quality that eludes me to even this day.

 

I cannot help you here.  I have not heard the LCD.  I am very curious however.

 

 

Quote:

 

I could care less about what other audiophiles own or if there systems are brilliant, but man I am really happy for them and understand it now.  For a very long time I thought my happiness only resided in expensive overpriced setups, I was immensely wrong.

 

This is the perfect position to be in.  You can now trust your ears and buy what brings you the music reproduction you enjoy.  Audiophilia is not about the most expensive, but the most enjoyable.

 

Quote:

Stand up for yourselves already and don't be cowards.  Demand some nicer stuff and don't let yourself be stiffed so often.  It's not just Audeze, they've proven they are at least somewhat listening to people but are only designing their gear the way the do because you guys refuse to say anything to them.

 

My impression is that those who enjoy the LCD honestly like them and are delighted with their investment.  They thus have no complaints.  Others love the sound but not the cable, pads or other aspects.  These are routinely posted.  Audeze is well aware.  The market will decide if Audeze survives.

 

So what equipment have you found pushes the correct buttons, but is affordable and doesn't annoy you with unforgivable quirks?

post #569 of 631
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wapiti View Post

My impression is that those who enjoy the LCD honestly like them and are delighted with their investment.  They thus have no complaints.  Others love the sound but not the cable, pads or other aspects.  These are routinely posted.  Audeze is well aware.  The market will decide if Audeze survives.

 

So what equipment have you found pushes the correct buttons, but is affordable and doesn't annoy you with unforgivable quirks?



My absolute favorite affordable setup?  Hmm, I would say the Woody 325i recabled I recently mentioned, a Yamaha A800 outed to a Cavali CHT.  So far, that was my favorite somewhat affordable complete setup.  Other honorable mentions go to the Edition 8 + SR71A + J3/Fatality Pro for portable and use at my pc.  I think these little combos work very well together.   I loved the SR71A, while not really as potent as I would have preferred it was one of my favorite portable amps of all time, so musical and immensely fun to listen to with the Edition 8 and a decent source.  I couldn't find a setup that really meshed with my old T1 ( God rest its soul ) 

 

Oh, also I don't want to mention what meshes well with the HD598, I just don't have experience with some nicer combos for use with it.  It sounds great right out of the J3 and I don't feel the need to amp it or increase the source quality being my J3 and home pc.  But, I was just recommended the "Technical Pro 72-RX35U"  by another user here who said it sounds nice with his HD598, so I just purchased that from amazon and if you are interested I will report back with how the combo sounds. 

 

 

 


Edited by swbf2cheater - 10/21/11 at 9:14am
post #570 of 631

Does anyone here actually listen to music? 

 

What matters most to me iis how the music I love sounds when passed through it to my ears.  That most certainly does not always correspond with either measurements, or with what anyone else thinks about it.  I used SET amps with high efficiency horns for many years - that combination is heavenly to my ears with most (not all) of the music I enjoy.  I'm told it measures like a Yugo.  Who the %#$k cares if it sounds great to you?  Are you guys looking for proof that you're right via measurements...that you bought the right thing that is beyond scientific reproach?   This kind of conversation just baffles me. When you listen to music are you thinking about square waves and picking apart every flaw?  For me it's all about the music - this is emotional and entirely subjective (hence the tremendous variety of music, as well as the variety of devices to reproduce it in ones home).  The best scenario for me is that I completely forget the vehicle that's delivering it.  This happens far more regularly for me with speakers than with headphones.  Square waves and response curves have jack squat to do with my enjoyment of music - in fact thinking about them, or anything else for that matter, just gets in the way of my enjoyment.  If I were in the business of designing components then It would certainly mean the world to me - but as a listener, all I care about is how it sounds and how my experience of the music becomes. 

 

So when some dude with great measurement tools comes out with the set of 27 colorful graphs and curves with the circles and arrows and the paragraph on the back of each one explaining how the latest and greatest has a fly in the ointment, does that indicate to you that it's time to drop like it's hot on the for sale forum and reach out for the next promising candidate?  Do you guys all frame your response graphs and hang them on your wall.   Does anyone let their own ears be their judge, or do you need Jude or Skylab or Tyll or Michael Fremmer to hold your hand and walk you to the short urinal so you can tinkle in the big boys room?  No offense at all to any of those mentioned, who all offer a great service in their reviewing efforts...but for gods sake, make up your own minds.  That is about the one single thing I respect about the OP's premise here.  Beyond that he's lost me. 

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