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** Confessions of a Failing Audiophile ** - I hated the LCD2 - Page 9  

post #121 of 631
9/26/11 at 8:56am
Thread Starter 

Long cumbersome cables annoy me, they belong in the 1920s not 2011 :P

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post #122 of 631
9/26/11 at 9:29am

I'm with the OP, sort of...

 

I didn't hate the LCD2, rev2 that I got over the summer but I didn't particularly enjoy them, either. they seemed very dark. And not just relative to my Grado HF2 or PS1000 but relative to my decent speaker setup (salk songtowers), as well. I didn't get the sense that this was an accurate sound. it certainly wasn't an enjoyable one.

 

Combine that dark sound with stiff cables and an uncomfortable, heavy feeling on the head and it was an easy decision for me to sell them.

post #123 of 631
9/26/11 at 10:13am

 
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gwarmi View Post

 

The real argument is whether the 'high tier' market is growing or shrinking? I'm yet undecided, I

see contradicting examples. On one hand, Audeze are selling a decent amount, Grado are

releasing new models like the PS500 but on the other - AKG appear happy with the K70x

as a $400 flagship and Sennheiser are yet to announce if the HD600/650/800 will have

successors.

 

Companies like Audeze should be applauded for bringing a hand-made product like the LCD-2 to market

with a nice storage wooden box for $995USD. It's an amazing feat for a small producer, I bet their margins

are fairly small.

 


Sennheiser just released one of the most expensive flagships, so the fact that they haven't released a new HD650 actually points in the opposite direction as you're saying- that this "high tier" is growing and mid-fi is not.  Which isn't true of course, mid-fi is growing like crazy because that's the price point of the Beats.  AKG is a poor example because they're not responding to market demand, they're owned by Harman now and Harman is either unable or just not interested in producing a new flagship.  The K701 was based on R&D done by the real AKG.  If they released a flagship, they'd have to make a new design. 

 

There's been a high tier market for years, Grado has been selling the RS1 at 700 dollars for a long time, and before that were the R10, L3000, etc. 

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mochan View Post


LOL no, I will bet you anything the LCD2 doesn't cost more than $200 in materials, if even that. The margins on the LCD2 are at least half of the price you are paying, I bet it's more.

 

I would love for nothing more than the "high tier" market to die out, it's a market for people with money to burn and fools who have better things to spend on but choose to drink in the snake oil.


Audeze is certainly not the one to pick on about profit margins.  They likely have the lowest profit margins of all the new high tier headphones, being such a small company.  Look at Hifiman.  I bet their driver uses cheaper materials, their phones are all assembled with cheaper labor, and they use cheaper materials for the body of the phones.  And the HE6 sells for a lot more than the LCD-2. 

 


Edited by rhythmdevils - 9/26/11 at 10:23am
post #124 of 631
9/26/11 at 10:19am

Didn't AKG just release the K550?

post #125 of 631
9/26/11 at 10:23am
Quote:
Originally Posted by rhythmdevils View Post

 AKG is a poor example because they're not responding to market demand, they're owned by Harman now and Harman is either unable or just not interested in producing a new flagship.  The K701 was based on R&D done by the real AKG. 


I didn't know AKG is owned by Harmon(-Kardboard) now? Explains a lot.
post #126 of 631
9/26/11 at 10:31am

AKG has been owned by Harman for almost 20 years...

 

tongue.gif

post #127 of 631
9/26/11 at 10:37am
Quote:
Originally Posted by rhythmdevils View Post

Sennheiser just released one of the most expensive flagships, so the fact that they haven't released a new HD650 actually points in the opposite direction as you're saying- that this "high tier" is growing and mid-fi is not.

 

 

Having heard a few flagship headphones I would question if this "high tier" hifi actually exists at all.
 
Sennheiser, Beyerdynamic, Hifiman, Audeze all roughly at the same time achieve a new higher-tier never before being achieved and I call that marketing, not hi-fi. The T1 is a DT880-990 hybrid that comes in a fancy box, the HD800 is a Sony SA5000 (as odd as that may sound) which comes in a fancy box. Also both the Hifiman and Audeze offerings also come in a fancy box. This visual treat does wonders for the sound, we're susceptible to it on a daily basis. For all those whom cry with delight over their new $1,000 flagship are exhibiting a cognitive illusion.
 
I don't doubt the aforementioned headphones are 'different' from their predecessors, 'higher tier' however is imaginative.
post #128 of 631
9/26/11 at 10:43am
I can't say for the T1 / DT800 because I haven't measured them, but the HD800 is both subjectively (at least from my ears) and objectively (from my measurements) better than the SA5000. Your fancy box argument makes no sense because the SA5000 comes in a fancy box too (I like the Sony box better.) In terms of eye candy, the SA5000, at least in my eyes, looks more attractive than the HD800 (which looks like it came from that movie the Fifth Element, but with a German, instead of a French twist to it.) BTW, I own both HD800 and SA5000.
Edited by purrin - 9/26/11 at 10:44am
post #129 of 631
9/26/11 at 10:49am

What a ridiculous thread

post #130 of 631
9/26/11 at 10:54am
Quote:
Originally Posted by purrin View Post

I can't say for the T1 / DT800 because I haven't measured them, but the HD800 is both subjectively (at least from my ears) and objectively (from my measurements) better than the SA5000. Your fancy box argument makes no sense because the SA5000 comes in a fancy box too (I like the Sony box better.) In terms of eye candy, the SA5000, at least in my eyes, looks more attractive than the HD800 (which looks like it came from that movie the Fifth Element, but with a German, instead of a French twist to it.) BTW, I own both HD800 and SA5000.

 

In saying that something is subjectively better you only bolster the point I'm making, the HD800 has to be better because of the price tag. Preferring a cardboard box to a metal briefcase is commendable if not a little exaggerated. The HD800 among other 'top-tier' phones are packed to the brim with pompous grandiose, of which audiophiles are highly susceptible.
 
For a member of the board to question such a glorious headphone it must seem completely obsurd to the majority of egotistical audiophiles.
post #131 of 631
9/26/11 at 11:24am
Ahh, understood. I must say that Sennheiser (or was it Grado with the GS1000) played an instrumental part in pushing the prices of these headphones up a notch (STAX doesn't count because they were always a niche.)

This is why I'm always telling people to go to meets and experience gear themselves first hand. As far as swbf2cheater's experience with the LCD2, I'm not surprised. When I spoke negatively about the LCD2 early on, I was essentially told that I lived in a different reality. People have even questioned if the ringing on the CSD plots / measurements on the LCD2 were not in fact measurement errors or artifacts.

In terms of the high-end, what's disturbing (and rhythmdevils and I had have much discussion on this), is that many of these recently released high-end phones have increased resolution, but have not addressed or even gone backwards on neutrality (linear frequency response and lack of ringing.) I've railed against this on other threads: the manufacturers should start producing truly good and innovative stuff instead rehashing designs with the same 'ol issues.
post #132 of 631
9/26/11 at 11:27am
Thread Starter 

^ beautifully said

post #133 of 631
9/26/11 at 11:32am

Purrin, what do you mean ringing?  Something related to reverb?

post #134 of 631
9/26/11 at 11:34am
Quote:
Originally Posted by purrin View Post

Ahh, understood. I must say that Sennheiser (or was it Grado with the GS1000) played an instrumental part in pushing the prices of these headphones up a notch (STAX doesn't count because they were always a niche.)

snip


Well said.

 

The ~$1K flagships suddenly crept up on us, and has suddenly become the norm in high end headphone pricing.

post #135 of 631
9/26/11 at 11:41am
Quote:
Originally Posted by purrin View Post

Ahh, understood. I must say that Sennheiser (or was it Grado with the GS1000) played an instrumental part in pushing the prices of these headphones up a notch (STAX doesn't count because they were always a niche.)

This is why I'm always telling people to go to meets and experience gear themselves first hand. As far as swbf2cheater's experience with the LCD2, I'm not surprised. When I spoke negatively about the LCD2 early on, I was essentially told that I lived in a different reality. People have even questioned if the ringing on the CSD plots / measurements on the LCD2 were not in fact measurement errors or artifacts.

In terms of the high-end, what's disturbing (and rhythmdevils and I had have much discussion on this), is that many of these recently released high-end phones have increased resolution, but have not addressed or even gone backwards on neutrality (linear frequency response and lack of ringing.) I've railed against this on other threads: the manufacturers should start producing truly good and innovative stuff instead rehashing designs with the same 'ol issues.


Think about this so called 'increased resolution'...

 

I suppose if I were to move from a HD650 to a HD800 I could say the sound is so much clearer, but what I'm really saying is the treble is louder. I grouped the HD800 in with the SA5000 for this similar reason, they both have +dB highs and this translates into resolution. While on the subject a HD650 owner might consider the LCD-2 more of an upgrade than a HD800 which they might consider a side step or possibly flat out dislike the phone for it's energetic treble.

 

Ultimately we're seeing tweaks with emphasis on the treble to give the illusion of a higher-tier for audiophiles. At the other end of the headphone game we're seeing boosted bass which attracts bass-heads/kids.

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