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Audiophile cables, an interesting question. - Page 62

post #916 of 1186

Ok, here is some cable measurements.  Discuss.  :D

 

http://rinchoi.blogspot.com/2013/06/hidition-new-tears-6-new-vs-old.html

 

k32qEom.jpg

 

Ow8aW5p.jpg

post #917 of 1186
Quote:
Originally Posted by SilverEars View Post
 

Ok, here is some cable measurements.  Discuss.  :D

 

http://rinchoi.blogspot.com/2013/06/hidition-new-tears-6-new-vs-old.html

 

k32qEom.jpg

 

Ow8aW5p.jpg

If I understand the top graph this is showing the impedance which appears to be just the plain resistance as it is constant with frequency.  The lower graphs one needs more info about the test to know what it shows.  My guess is it shows the response at his headphone with the various cables,  And the response of the phones he shows is consistent with that.  The response variation would appear to be an interaction in the impedance variation in the headphone and the added serial resistance of the cable.  Nothing mysterious really.  Though I wonder what length cable as the resistance of some seem rather high.  It also appears the amount of variation is not likely highly audible other than for a couple of the cables. 

 

In other words rather than paying big bucks for cables like the Nordost for its high resistance, a resistor in series could be fine tuned if you prefer it with that response. Cost a buck or so instead of real money.  Better would be going with a very low resistance cable and EQ to taste.

post #918 of 1186

I think the point is if I'm understanding correctly is that the cable with the best conductance or the lease impedance is showing most linear response. 

post #919 of 1186
No magic there - that's how you build crossovers. Don't build cables with wonky specs unless you want wonky results. Exotic materials in a cable with the same measurements make no difference.
Edited by liamstrain - 7/5/14 at 11:33am
post #920 of 1186

those graphs are very small and fuzzy, but am I seeing a deviation of about 1dB at worst? Because that would never be audible in music. Just barely audible with tones in a direct A/B comparison. None of these would matter.

post #921 of 1186
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigshot View Post
 

those graphs are very small and fuzzy, but am I seeing a deviation of about 1dB at worst? Because that would never be audible in music. Just barely audible with tones in a direct A/B comparison. None of these would matter.

This is what I figured.  And, I'm hoping cable provided with multi-BA are at the impedance where it will not cause significant deviations, although the audio players output can have 3-4ohms(iphone) in the series to provide the same affect, the cable will only add to it.

post #922 of 1186

Figure 3dB for an audible difference in music, and it would be much less audible above 10kHz than below it.

post #923 of 1186
Quote:
Originally Posted by ViralRazor View Post
 

Well, debate has been going on for a while, do "audiophile" cable upgrades actually work, with a stronger debate going on for actual analogue signals.

 

I've just got a short post and a interesting question to share:

 

Assuming that changing cables changes sound signature and that its true, why do we never see people talking about how their sound quality from their headphones/speakers took a turn for the worse when they changed out from stock cables to "audiophile" cables. Would transmitting a slightly with ever so slightly less interference improve subjective sound quality at all? If the sound signature is changed, surely there must be some people who are disappointed with this change in sound. And yet we never see this when someone changes from a stock cable to a custom cable.


I thought the 1st 5 audiophile cables I tried on my JH13s were worse in overall character to the stock cable. They're quite often downgrades. I've found a few I like but the ledger is still weighted towards less preferred than more and there isn't a price correlation to my preferences either. 3 of the 4 I like are under $70. The other is the twag V3$$$. I know that in home audio, I always liked a particular moderately priced cable to all the esoteric stuff until a few years back when I found a costly one that works for me.


Edited by goodvibes - 7/5/14 at 11:52am
post #924 of 1186

In general, high end audiophile cables are more likely to be hobbled to produce a "house sound" for the boutique manufacturer. Usually that means rolled off high end, because that is often the first thing to go when you are designing a totally inefficient cable. The same holds true for other kinds of equipment too... amps, cd players, DACs, etc. Midrange equipment usually has much better performance than esoteric high end stuff designed to perform out of spec.

post #925 of 1186
Quote:
Originally Posted by SilverEars View Post
 

I think the point is if I'm understanding correctly is that the cable with the best conductance or the lease impedance is showing most linear response. 

that's only because the headphone itself doesn't have a linear impedance response over frequencies. else all those cables would do is slightly change the volume( an expensive one-position knob). it wouldn't do a thing to the signature. at least up to the point where the damping factor would become so bad that the driver would no longer behave right. not something those cables can do.

 keeping at least 1/10 is a sure way to never have to look after cables. but that's obviously hard to do with low impedance IEMs when some dap specs read <1ohm and actually measure several times that.

post #926 of 1186
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigshot View Post
 

In general, high end audiophile cables are more likely to be hobbled to produce a "house sound" for the boutique manufacturer. Usually that means rolled off high end, because that is often the first thing to go when you are designing a totally inefficient cable. The same holds true for other kinds of equipment too... amps, cd players, DACs, etc. Midrange equipment usually has much better performance than esoteric high end stuff designed to perform out of spec.


I know your feelings and don't entirely disagree about esoteric cables but I doubt many show roll before 20khz. Can't burn both sides of the spec candle. The earphone cables I was referring to were all braided and of sufficient guage to measure less than 1 ohm resistance except for a shielded moon audio. You need a whole lot of capacitance or inductance to show roll from a 2 ohm or even 50 ohm output impedance source.

post #927 of 1186
Quote:
Originally Posted by esldude View Post
 

If I understand the top graph this is showing the impedance which appears to be just the plain resistance as it is constant with frequency.  The lower graphs one needs more info about the test to know what it shows.  My guess is it shows the response at his headphone with the various cables,  And the response of the phones he shows is consistent with that.  The response variation would appear to be an interaction in the impedance variation in the headphone and the added serial resistance of the cable.  Nothing mysterious really.  Though I wonder what length cable as the resistance of some seem rather high.  It also appears the amount of variation is not likely highly audible other than for a couple of the cables. 

 

In other words rather than paying big bucks for cables like the Nordost for its high resistance, a resistor in series could be fine tuned if you prefer it with that response. Cost a buck or so instead of real money.  Better would be going with a very low resistance cable and EQ to taste.

Notice the "Magnitude" on the axis.  This means it's taking the raw value with wether it has complex or reactive components in it.  Taking the magnitude of the the impedance(resistive and reactive).  The resistance should not be that high.  This means there is reactive components to the cable, wether it be capacitance or inductance, which explains the minor skew as the impedance magnitude goes up.  I know braid is for lowering the cap or induct and creating isolation without shielding.  


Edited by SilverEars - 7/5/14 at 2:17pm
post #928 of 1186
Quote:
Originally Posted by SilverEars View Post
 

Notice the "Magnitude" on the axis.  This means it's taking the raw value with wether it has complex or reactive components in it.  Taking the magnitude of the the impedance(resistive and reactive).  The resistance should not be that high.  This means there is reactive components to the cable, wether it be capacitance or inductance, which explains the minor skew as the impedance magnitude goes up.  I know braid is for lowering the cap or induct and creating isolation without shielding.  


But with reactance the impedance would likely change rather than showing a flat line (assuming you are referring to the first graph) over the 20-20khz range. Again this is really no mystery.  If so it is mainly what were the details of how this measurement was made.

post #929 of 1186

What I'm wondering about is how the resistance changes to this?  For audio frequencies should be an affect right?  I recall this for RF applications.  I've heard this model can be ignored for audio frequencies. capacitance is because of the metal end connectors become significantly capacitive at high frequencies.  And there is the skin affect at high frequencies.  I guess this model doesn't apply to cables since it's a straight conductor all way through.

 

enter image description here 


Edited by SilverEars - 7/5/14 at 2:33pm
post #930 of 1186
Quote:
Originally Posted by SilverEars View Post
 

What I'm wondering about is how the resistance changes to this?  For audio frequencies should be an affect right?  I recall this for RF applications.  I've heard this model can be ignored for audio frequencies. capacitance is because of the metal end connectors become significantly capacitive at high frequencies.  And there is the skin affect at high frequencies.  I guess this model doesn't apply to cables since it's a straight conductor all way through.

 

enter image description here 

Well sometimes going to extremes shows the lay of the land.  Suppose your cable were wholly reactive.  Lets say a capacitance only, basically capacitor coupled.  If the capacitor were large enough versus the resistive load it would be -3 db at 2 hz, and flat essentially from 20 hz and above.  If it were some smaller, it might be -3db at 40 hz and rolling off at 6 db per octave into lower frequencies.  Above about 400 hz it would be flat. 

 

Looking at the reverse, say your signal is simply an inductor.  It might be -3db down at 200 khz, and flat below 20 khz.  If the inductor is some larger it might be - 3db at 10 khz and flat below 1 khz.   And of course with parallel resistance, and caps as well as inductors mixed it can get messier.  But the formulae for figuring such response isn't too terribly awful.  Plugging in the proper values for impedance at both ends, and the appropriate inductance and capacitance values with typical cable it simply isn't an issue at audio frequencies for the most part. As others have said, sometimes boutique high end cable has been made with enough reactance to interfere at audio frequencies to give a house sound.  Typically soft highs.  Again, just bypass the con cable makers and use a basic good cable with no worries.  If you like the soft high end, EQ it in to your taste.

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