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Audiophile cables, an interesting question. - Page 7

post #91 of 1025
Quote:
Originally Posted by Prog Rock Man View Post

Sorry Gregorio, again to pick you up on a point, you say "Science provides a wealth of evidence that differences between expensive "audiophile" cables and standard cables are inaudible", but to many people they are not, to such a degree that understandably they react when objectivists say there is no difference.

I don't get your point? Those who suggested the earth was a sphere with scientific evidence to back it up were threatened with excommunication and death by the majority who had only subjective perception and biased belief as their evidence. Just because there was a lot of flat-earthers didn't make their perception or irrational belief any more true. There's still a Flat Earth Society to this day! There are all kinds of weird and wacky little groups of people with completely irrational beliefs. Have I misunderstood your point?

G
post #92 of 1025

@Gregario - semantics confusion here unless I'm much mistaken. Prog Rock Man generally says in most of his posts on this that people do hear differences between cables, but they are produced by the mechanisms of bias rather than the cable. He's saying that people hence react badly, seeing that the see the differences they heard as cable related with a mistaken certainty.

 

@Megaohmz:

Google Quantum Mysticism. What you're trying to say can be summed up (as it was in another thread) as "I don't know, therefore quantum physics."

post #93 of 1025
Yes, I have shifted how I express my position by removing the part of the debate that offends so many subjectivists by saying/suggesting they are wrong to hear a difference, there is something wrong with them that thye do hear a difference and there is no difference.

By doing that I want to try and progress the debate, hence my signature "The debate should be WHY do some hear differences and others do not."
post #94 of 1025
Very interesting post... Personally I just buy decent cables (not lamp cord or bottom of barrel stuff but something like QED classic £3 per metre cable)....

I have thought I noticed subtle differences but I am entirely open to the fact that this could have been entirely psychological and I also think that the high end cable / power cord industry is very questionable lol.
post #95 of 1025
Zip cord is the best for speaker cable just make sure you get the right gauge, the expensive cables make unproven claims like no skin effect or dieeletric losses but provide no measurements to prove this, also dieeletric losses from the cheapest pvc jacket are so small there completely inaudioable, also skin effect losses are in the 0.01db range at 20khz is also completely inaudioable.
post #96 of 1025

I was being sarcastic about the Brittish accent. I am English myself, among other European ancestry. My ancestors are Druid kings for God's sake. And yes I did listen to the whole thing. I don't dissagree with the video at all. Sheesh.

post #97 of 1025
The reason people hear a "difference" is the same reason why Folger's Crystals were successfully slipped into high-end restaurants.

Anyone remember those commercials?

They'd switch an expensive coffee with Folger's and no one could tell the difference. Everyone assumed it was something expensive and loved it.

The same happens in wine tests.

It all turns on an expected result. Which is why quite a few here thought that Home Depot wire in a garden hose was something special.

There isn't a complicated issue here and no mysteries unknown to science. The psychology behind placebo/expectation has been understood (or at least noticed and studied) for decades. Further, audio has been well understood for 50 years while electricity has been scientifically understood for over 100.

Unless you're working with radio frequencies, power transmission lines or long distances, cables behave the same. No test has shown otherwise. Every cable listening test falls in line with what's known about placebo and expectation.

Cables are completely understood.

Also understood is the common con-man, grifter, flim-flam artist, and snakeoil merchant. Those people have been around for centuries. It's commonly known that victims often defend con-men, even after they've been exposed. Some people refused to believe Ponzi was guilty, even after he went to prison. Nothing new here. Scam artists are everywhere in audio. Easy money and you can "appear" respectable to many.

It's much more romantic to think that magic is real, there are fantastic undiscovered realities and that there are noble people fighting the boundaries of science to make your music better.

The reality is that there is no magic, you're imagining things that aren't really there, and that a greedy con-man took advantage of your trust to cheat you out of a lot of money.
post #98 of 1025

One example of a difference in some RCAs I had was some Rockford Fosgate RCAs that I replaced in my truck with some Monster RCAs. The Fosgates were special cables in that they were braided so the wires overlapped over and over again. This created a sort of induction in the wire to attenuate automobile noise like from a distributor. But the high freqs were also attenuated a bit and this was not apparent until I switched the cables over. I think If anyone with decent ears did an A to B comparison, they will notice definite changes in the character of the sound, especially in longer lengths of RCA cable.  

post #99 of 1025
Quote:
Originally Posted by Megaohmz View Post

One example of a difference in some RCAs I had was some Rockford Fosgate RCAs that I replaced in my truck with some Monster RCAs. The Fosgates were special cables in that they were braided so the wires overlapped over and over again. This created a sort of induction in the wire to attenuate automobile noise like from a distributor. But the high freqs were also attenuated a bit and this was not apparent until I switched the cables over. I think If anyone with decent ears did an A to B comparison, they will notice definite changes in the character of the sound, especially in longer lengths of RCA cable.  


How about a blind ABX test?

post #100 of 1025



 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Willakan View Post

@Gregario - semantics confusion here unless I'm much mistaken. Prog Rock Man generally says in most of his posts on this that people do hear differences between cables, but they are produced by the mechanisms of bias rather than the cable. He's saying that people hence react badly, seeing that the see the differences they heard as cable related with a mistaken certainty.

 

@Megaohmz:

Google Quantum Mysticism. What you're trying to say can be summed up (as it was in another thread) as "I don't know, therefore quantum physics."


Actually what I was trying to say in a sort of cryptic manner, is that no matter what someone believes, there is always out there one who does not believe, but knows.

 

It's funny because I believe in God not because of faith, but because I have experienced a sort of miracle that I will keep to myself. I actually think that faith is a really good way to get yourself into trouble, which is why I only study religions for political/historical knowledge. I think that organized religion is the elites way of trapping minds and controlling the populace. This has a negative effect on people who are atheists, and see through the manipulation. They will "never believe in a creator, or universal conscience" unless a bearded man comes down and tells them he is God and "proves it".  

 

So in a way I disagree with the video, not because of logic, but because of my personal experiences. The video is logically arranged in a way so that it makes sense. It would be folly to believe in something that you don't "know", but it would also be equally ridiculous not to investigate something that everyone is on a bandwagon with. I like the video in a way because you can show it to people and make them look wrong, since it talks logical circles around and in on itself.

 

One thing I, being a scientist believe, is that the more questions are answered by science, the more questions will exponentially follow. It is like peeling back reality, and realizing it is all just there to mess with you in a way. When they find the higgs boson will that suffice? Is the higgs boson made of yet even more infinitely small particles, with multiple infinite dimensions?    
 

 


Edited by Megaohmz - 10/1/11 at 8:25pm
post #101 of 1025
Quote:
Originally Posted by Head Injury View Post

How about a blind ABX test?


I offer 100% money back if you are not satisfied with any of my posts.
 

 

post #102 of 1025
Quote:
Originally Posted by Megaohmz View Post

I offer 100% money back if you are not satisfied with any of my posts. 


Too bad cables don't.

post #103 of 1025
Quote:
Originally Posted by Uncle Erik View Post

Cables are completely understood.

Sorry to drag up an earlier quote of mine but I felt like I had to reiterate... cables are boring.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Megaohmz View Post

One example of a difference in some RCAs I had was some Rockford Fosgate RCAs that I replaced in my truck with some Monster RCAs. The Fosgates were special cables in that they were braided so the wires overlapped over and over again. This created a sort of induction in the wire to attenuate automobile noise like from a distributor. But the high freqs were also attenuated a bit and this was not apparent until I switched the cables over. I think If anyone with decent ears did an A to B comparison, they will notice definite changes in the character of the sound, especially in longer lengths of RCA cable.  


Nope. I hate to say this, but this is the same form as the anecdote referenced in the earlier video. You are relating an experience without giving enough details for someone to follow along or (if in case it is warranted) to challenge you on this. What kinds of RPM's are you talking about (because this can be related to the frequency induced)? What kind of distributor (if indeed that is what was in your car) did you have? The braiding... I'm assuming you mean in the insulating/shielding portion of the cable?,.. Because if it is in the wire, it should receive no interference from any part of your engine that would cause an audible change (perceptive maybe, but not different at your pinna); and if it is, then it is/was junk cable or all you needed was some $5 ferrite cores and you would have been golden. Were these RCA's supplying any video in the car (because video operates at a much higher frequency, it is more important how the cables are terminated)? EMI has more energy at lower frequencies (from your distributor, not audio here)... how again are you justifying that high audio frequencies were attenuated? If you are saying because inductive reactance is directly proportional to frequency... that is irrelevant because no matter how far off the phase angle is, audio frequencies are too low to be reflected back to the source (and cause 'interference') in time for you to hear voltage variations from this. These are some questions I might be asking myself if I were in your situation there.

I didn't want to call you out, but you are mistaking "personal experience" from "valid scientific evidence." If science had any proof that your personal experience alone were valid, then I wouldn't be pointing this out, but instead the opposite is true and science has continually shown that personal, subjective, sighted experience wrt what is audible cannot be taken as scientifically valid.

For the last part, don't assume that everyone here listens to junk equipment because we can't afford good stuff. And please don't assume that we are trying to rationalize spending less money because we are unfortunate souls who just can't hear well. Every example that I'm aware where someone (from Michael Fremer on down) has attempted to blindly differentiate cables, has failed. Your argument is a last ditch, desperate, empty attempt to justify your position sir.

Hope this helps!
Edited by SpaceTimeMorph - 10/2/11 at 12:48am
post #104 of 1025
Quote:
Originally Posted by Megaohmz View Post



 


Actually what I was trying to say in a sort of cryptic manner, is that no matter what someone believes, there is always out there one who does not believe, but knows.

 

It's funny because I believe in God not because of faith, but because I have experienced a sort of miracle that I will keep to myself. I actually think that faith is a really good way to get yourself into trouble, which is why I only study religions for political/historical knowledge. I think that organized religion is the elites way of trapping minds and controlling the populace. This has a negative effect on people who are atheists, and see through the manipulation. They will "never believe in a creator, or universal conscience" unless a bearded man comes down and tells them he is God and "proves it".  

 

So in a way I disagree with the video, not because of logic, but because of my personal experiences. The video is logically arranged in a way so that it makes sense. It would be folly to believe in something that you don't "know", but it would also be equally ridiculous not to investigate something that everyone is on a bandwagon with. I like the video in a way because you can show it to people and make them look wrong, since it talks logical circles around and in on itself.

 

One thing I, being a scientist believe, is that the more questions are answered by science, the more questions will exponentially follow. It is like peeling back reality, and realizing it is all just there to mess with you in a way. When they find the higgs boson will that suffice? Is the higgs boson made of yet even more infinitely small particles, with multiple infinite dimensions?    
 

 


It's easy to question science. It's something else to overturn a century of hard results, tests and real-world experience. This isn't some theoretical deal. It is hands-on, hardcore reality.

The - literally - billions of electronic tests conducted over 100 years lend credence to known electrical theories. Millions and millions of people have tested equipment with millions of devices. If something as fundamental as RLC had flaws, it probably would have shown up before 1910.

As for the psychological aspect, I could humiliate you with a coathanger and a blindfold.

I think that, on some level, you know you cannot pass a listening test.

Every believer goes into hiding when pressed to take a test. I've seen a lot of argument, but believers are always afraid to put their belief to the test. No one will listen with their eyes closed. No one will buy a $5 DMM (Harbor Freight has them, cheap) and see what's going on. As far as I can tell, every believer is terrified about confronting the truth.

Me? I bought some expensive cables. I actually still use some silly silver thing between my tonearm and phonostage. It came with the SME IV arm. It works. No magic, but it works, so I kept it. I had the others for a few years and listened daily. I also put them on my test gear - I have a nice DMM, LCR meter, oscilloscope, frequency counter, and a few other things. All measurements and tests were the same as other cables. They all sounded the same.

I didn't have firm beliefs before I went through the cables. But now I do, especially in light of all the reports and measurements I've seen. My opinion was formed on direct experience, tests and the reports of others who did the same.

If you have faith, put it to the test. See what happens. If you turn out to be wrong, why have faith? If you're afraid to test faith, then do you actually have faith in the first place?
post #105 of 1025
Well said. You see, they're not going to submit themselves to a test when they believe that a DBT is a lose lose situation and come up with excuses. If I spent $2000 on cables and I found out they didn't make a difference I'd be happy because I could sell them. I can't be oblivious about the things I spend my money on
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