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Audiophile cables, an interesting question. - Page 58

post #856 of 1186
Quote:
Originally Posted by lids369 View Post

Negative feedback in the context of the Global feedback does affect the sound due to the time delay, and that's why it sounds better to not include that in your circuit.

More mythology.

Quote:
He even says that whether these effects are audible is another story. His point with the article is stating that the cable does change its properties over the course of time, and therefore it does "burn in."

He demonstrated absolutely no such thing. Again, he's taken things totally out of context as well as things that don't apply to bulk materials which are what cables are made of and crafts it into a big pile of pure propaganda.

Quote:
Edit: The point of posting that article was that person was asking someone to explain some of the terms on the Nordost website.

Except the article explains nothing. It's just as big a pile of steaming BS as the Nordost stuff.

se
post #857 of 1186
Quote:
Originally Posted by ab initio View Post

Wow. In that article the author rambles on about things he clearly doesn't understand (or hopes the reader doesn't understand). I'm not impressed nor would anyone with the slightest inkling of quantum mechanics, electricity&magnetism, or materials science be fooled.

The sad thing is, it works, as evidenced here.

se
post #858 of 1186
Quote:
Originally Posted by lids369 View Post
 

 

He cites a PEER REVIEWED STUDY that states MATERIALS CHANGE OVER PERIODS OF TIME WHEN YOU APPLY ELECTRICITY. Quantum Tunneling isn't a minor effect that is hard to measure. If you want to see quantum tunneling at work, look outside at the big glowing ball of hydrostatically stable gas giving you life. The fact that I gave you guys an article with legitimate citations, and that still wasn't good enough to maybe admit that your high school or basic college physics classes aren't enough to explain what happens in cables is ridiculous. 


You don't even have to step outside to witness it.
Quantum tunnelling has a hand in the mutations happening in your body right at this moment. Bonding hydrogen in the DNA has a tendency to jump up and down in energy state rather haphazardly, and when they do it facilitates unconventional base pairings, resulting in replication errors and mutations. Pretty cool, eh?

Still fail to see what any of this has to do with the movement of charges at audio frequencies through macroscopic copper conductors.


Edited by limpidglitch - 6/2/14 at 9:35pm
post #859 of 1186
Quote:
Originally Posted by elmoe View Post
 

Right, as explained then, replace 'best sound' by 'what sounds better to my ears'. I've tried EQing pretty extensively but I just couldn't get the DAC1 to sound anywhere nearly as good as it does paired with my tube amp though.


I agree with you on this elmoe.  Best sound is best to my ears or your ears, or a crowd of people's ears.  I distinguish them by saying highest fidelity.  Flat low distortion is highest fidelity.  Since it is so available it makes the best reference.  However, very often, almost 100% of the time, I, and most people I know prefer something not maximal fidelity.  Exactly how and how much to depart from fidelity varies considerably among people.  I think this is part of the fog in high end audio.  It is held prima facie that better sound to our ears is higher fidelity sound.  I find this to be very rare, and probably only with highest fidelity recordings which had nothing done to them.  No EQ, no compression, nothing just straight off good mics and into digital.  As such recordings are less than 1 in a thousand, most recorded music has been seasoned to someone's taste.  And further seasoning or unseasoning to fine tune for highest individual pleasure is pretty much a given.  Nor am I against it.  Just don't confuse that subjectively determined seasoning with better fidelity.

post #860 of 1186
Quote:
Originally Posted by limpidglitch View Post

Still fail to see what any of this has to do with the movement of charges at audio frequencies through macroscopic copper conductors.

One of my pet peeves is that they virtually always seem to approach things from the assumption that the electrons are otherwise just sitting around, calm and collected and when a signal us applied, start moving down the wire, until disaster strikes when the electrons run into an impurity or crystal boundary, boogering up the signal.

The reality is that under normal conditions, the electrons are being bitch slapped in all directions like so many hos due to the thermal energy in the wire as a consequence of it being at room temperature (lattice vibrations). In fact, it is this which is responsible for virtually all of the wire's rsistance.

Any consequences of electrons banging into impurities or crystal boundaries will be completely swamped by the thermal noise of the wire itself and you're never going to hear even the wire's thermal noise. So talking about all this other stuff is just marketing masturbation aimed at those who don't know any better and will not only swallow it without question, but spread it elsewhere.

se
post #861 of 1186
Quote:
Originally Posted by lids369 View Post
 

 

http://www.jandrpc.com/Quantum%20Tunnel%20of%20Love.htm


Care to point which direction in audio cables the electrical pressure is?  As an AC signal it generally has no direction over any length of time.  Goes one way and then the next.


Further, if the effect is real it will change the measurements as we can measure below what we can hear in a number of ways.  Measurements don't show a change.

post #862 of 1186
Quote:
Originally Posted by esldude View Post

Care to point which direction in audio cables the electrical pressure is?  As an AC signal it generally has no direction over any length of time.  Goes one way and then the next.

Further, the "signal" is the transverse electromagnetic wave that propagates down the cable, not the electrons. The TEM wave propagates at a decent proportion of the speed of light. Calculate the amount of energy that would be required to shove electrons down a cable at such speeds. The cables and anything near them would be vaporized.

The propagandists pass themselves off as speaking from a position of authority, but more often than not they demonstrate that they haven't any understanding even of some pretty basic stuff.

Quote:
Further, if the effect is real it will change the measurements as we can measure below what we can hear in a number of ways.  Measurements don't show a change.

You'd have to measure down below the thermal noise of the wire. But at that point, it's already moot. You're simply never going to hear it.

se
post #863 of 1186

so a cable is not eternal, point taken, I'm gonna return those ouroboros cables pronto, that was snake oil again...

 

 

the problem I have with cables, is that on one hand everybody accepts the fact that a dac is turning digital to analog nicely, with who knows how many components and materials. everybody accepts that an op amp succeeds in an almost magical way to add gain to a signal with close to no loss or distortion. in short, the more complex the stuff, the less doubt and questions about it(probably because it is that much harder to pretend to know the subject). but take a stupid piece of passive component like a short cable, and everybody's a rocket scientist that thinks about all the technical advancements to make it better (when at the same time most of the best dac chips have been the same model for years).

the reason why any average dude can pretend he invented a very new better cable that makes the sound "this and that" and has those effects, and need such and such special treatment, and a handful of salt over my shoulder, and should burn-in 172.5hours ... is because all those silly stuff have close to no effect on sound. if we were to let them do to dacs what they do to audio cables, the results would be the most crappy dac ever built(if it could output anything but noise).

 

if we want to have an open mind and use logic to understand things, let's try to stop focusing our efforts only on the very worthless things that are already perfectly known like cables.

my own personal opinion on most burn-in over 200hours reported as being night and day changes, is that it is plain and simple ********.

and the reason is called dopamine. no need to look into cables to explain what happens in the brain of a guy with his new toy. and the same guy one month later can never feel the same way or focus the same way on sound when listening to that toy. that is known and explained and fits perfectly with everything described by audiophiles, no need to chase after quantum particles.

post #864 of 1186
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Eddy View Post


The reality is that under normal conditions, the electrons are being bitch slapped in all directions like so many hos due to the thermal energy in the wire as a consequence of it being at room temperature (lattice vibrations). In fact, it is this which is responsible for virtually all of the wire's rsistance.


se

wouldn't having a turtle close to the cable, solve that lattice problem?

I'm trying to help here!!!

post #865 of 1186
Quote:
Originally Posted by castleofargh View Post
 

wouldn't having a turtle close to the cable, solve that lattice problem?

I'm trying to help here!!!


It is sounding like we need a Wire Pimp to keep all the bitch slapped ho electrons in line. 

post #866 of 1186
Quote:
Originally Posted by castleofargh View Post

wouldn't having a turtle close to the cable, solve that lattice problem?
I'm trying to help here!!!

I think rabbits would br more effective.

se
post #867 of 1186
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Eddy View Post

The reality is that under normal conditions, the electrons are being bitch slapped in all directions like so many hos due to the thermal energy in the wire as a consequence of it being at room temperature (lattice vibrations). In fact, it is this which is responsible for virtually all of the wire's resistance.

 

Best. Quote. Ever.

 

Cheers

post #868 of 1186

if electrons were unionized(uber pun) they would all go in the same direction for a better sound. but then sometimes they would go on strike and you'll have no music.

post #869 of 1186
Quote:
Originally Posted by lids369 View Post
 

 

Edit: The point of posting that article was that person was asking someone to explain some of the terms on the Nordost website.

 

I appreciate that you were trying to post an honest explanation that appears to be founded in scientific principles. For that, thank you. :beerchug:

 

However, as it should be obvious now, the article lacks true scientific merit. It superficially sprinkles references to papers without truly understanding the papers themselves, without understanding the full body of scientific knowledge regarding phenomena that are actually relevant to audio, and without grasping which phenomena apply at the time, length, and temperature scales that our audio equipment operate at.

 

For example, I can do the same type of bollocks regarding fiber-optic cables:

 

Quote:
It is a well known phenomenon that the amplitude of electromagnetic waves is subject to nonlinear processes by which the energy contained in the fundamental of a beam of light is converted into harmonics, thereby reducing the energy contained in the original light source and leaking as light at different wavelengths [1]. The generation of multiple electromagnetic wave frequencies brings the complications of chromatic dispersion to the design of fiber-optic interconnects. Chromatic dispersion results as different wavelengths of light travel through the same medium at different propagation speeds. The result is a temporal smearing of light pulses that pass through a length of fiber-optic cables, which in turn makes detecting the exact timing of each light pulse difficult for the receiving electronics. These timing errors are the main culprit which leads to high amounts of jitter which destroy the fidelity of the reproduced music.
 
[1] - Nature 396, 653-655 (17 December 1998) | doi:10.1038/25303

 

As you can see, I quote (arguably) the highest impact scientific publication regarding a very real and measurable physical phenomenon. I then applied the results to a completely unrelated aspect of audio interconnects, and concluded (falsely) that the aforementioned physical process is the key process by which audible differences in fiber-optic cables can be generated.

 

This is a direct analog to the misinformation that was published in the previous article that you linked. This is why everybody here who knows the difference between quantum effects in single-molecule wires and the propagation of electric fields through bulk materials is laughing at the contents and claims of the article you posted. I hope this example helps you understand how lobbiests for the luxury cable companies use real science to pull the wool over your eyes regarding the actual merits of their products.

 

Cheers

post #870 of 1186
Quote:
Originally Posted by castleofargh View Post
 

if electrons were unionized(uber pun) they would all go in the same direction for a better sound. but then sometimes they would go on strike and you'll have no music.


This is also very good! :)

 

Cheers

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