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Audiophile cables, an interesting question. - Page 48

post #706 of 1186
Quote:
Originally Posted by SilverEars View Post
 

Hi, I recently had a discussion today with a headfier regarding cables for iems.  A iem has a impedance graph that dips as low as 4ohms.  He told me a cable can be up to 1ohm/foot impedance.  That value is significant in relation to the impedance of the phone.

 

Does 1ohm/foot exist?

 

That's almost exactly the resistance of a strand of 40 AWG wire. I doubt anyone is using conductors that small. (A human hair is appoximately the same diameter as 40 to 44 AWG wire.)

post #707 of 1186
Quote:
Originally Posted by lids369 View Post

This Schiit Lyr pulls a max of 30 Watts from the wall, when the power cable was pulled off of a Mark Levinson amp consuming closer to 1000 watts, which leads me to conclude that the power supply in the Schiit is anything but huge and over designed. It has a power supply along the lines of a preamp, and there is never too much power, by the way.

I heard things in the music when the Nordost was plugged in that I just couldn't with my stock cord in.

I think the whole double blind thing is a bust because with this amp, it takes a minimum of 30 seconds between each test. My ears already forgot what it was listening to. Instead, I would put on a song, notice details, commit those details to my short term memory, and then switch them out. I don't need to do a full blown study on the damn cables, especially to appease people who are armchair engineers, when I have the degree, and I can pick them up for just a $100. The science makes absolute sense when you think about it correctly. This article cleared a lot of the science up for me: http://www.gcaudio.com/resources/howtos/powercords.html

I would never recommend someone to buy this stuff off of what I wrote. I am just recommending that people try it out. That's the same logic the store I worked at during summers used. They would let everyone take home cables, and if they noticed a positive difference warranting the cost, they would buy them. They never had a problem selling cables. 

I used to be a skeptic, but then I realized everyone who was telling me that these power cords work have 30-40 years of experience in this stuff, and own incredible systems costing $50k (some of them made that money being electrical engineers), and everyone who was telling me these don't work ran a crappy Chinese $100 DAC/Amp combo to a set of M50s, so I tried them out.

If you really are so concerned with Nordost writing things on their website that you can't understand, ask them. I think they know a bit about wiring, since they worked on the wiring for the space shuttle program with NASA.

I totally get where you're coming from and based on my own attempts (with interconnects) i think that a dbx is not going to be able to answer the question we're asking. I've covered expectation bias earlier but since my little tests i've also been in touch with a few people in the industry and really there are other factors involved not least important of which are psychological.
If you don't tell the listener that there may or may not be a difference then you're highly unlike to find anyone detecting any difference even between amplifiers. So you have to tell them, but then it turns into an exercise of a.)discovering for themselves what those differences are - and if they exist and b.)detecting those differences with any kind of accuracy. It's not just audio but also for things like telling differences between to digital cameras also - it's about knowing where to look and once you do look in the right places, you still have to interpret what you see. Some would say this is just training your bias but i think it's impossible to do one without affecting the other. Some might say that if you have to train to hear the difference then it's surely not worth it, but often things don't have immediately apparent, suddenly palpable effect.
What i would say as the bottom line though, is that even if it is never possible to answer the question of whether cables (of all types) make a difference, cables will remain for me quite low in my "sound/$" list. Along with all the expensive cables i already own, I will continue to use bjc as my reference/par cables and avoid freebies for quality reasons.
post #708 of 1186
Quote:
Originally Posted by lids369 View Post
 

This Schiit Lyr pulls a max of 30 Watts from the wall, when the power cable was pulled off of a Mark Levinson amp consuming closer to 1000 watts, which leads me to conclude that the power supply in the Schiit is anything but huge and over designed. It has a power supply along the lines of a preamp, and there is never too much power, by the way.

 

I heard things in the music when the Nordost was plugged in that I just couldn't with my stock cord in.

 

I think the whole double blind thing is a bust because with this amp, it takes a minimum of 30 seconds between each test. My ears already forgot what it was listening to. Instead, I would put on a song, notice details, commit those details to my short term memory, and then switch them out. I don't need to do a full blown study on the damn cables, especially to appease people who are armchair engineers, when I have the degree, and I can pick them up for just a $100. The science makes absolute sense when you think about it correctly. This article cleared a lot of the science up for me: http://www.gcaudio.com/resources/howtos/powercords.html

 

I would never recommend someone to buy this stuff off of what I wrote. I am just recommending that people try it out. That's the same logic the store I worked at during summers used. They would let everyone take home cables, and if they noticed a positive difference warranting the cost, they would buy them. They never had a problem selling cables. 

 

I used to be a skeptic, but then I realized everyone who was telling me that these power cords work have 30-40 years of experience in this stuff, and own incredible systems costing $50k (some of them made that money being electrical engineers), and everyone who was telling me these don't work ran a crappy Chinese $100 DAC/Amp combo to a set of M50s, so I tried them out.

 

If you really are so concerned with Nordost writing things on their website that you can't understand, ask them. I think they know a bit about wiring, since they worked on the wiring for the space shuttle program with NASA.

 

In regards to your link.

 

1) There is no real science on that website.

2) Caelin Gabriel who wrote the "article" and is CEO of Shunyata Research Inc. and as near as I can tell it's sole employee; does not have a college degree and is not a scientist.

3) The "article" deals with POWER cables while we are talking about interconnects.......not that it makes much difference.

 

4) To date....No One, No Where, has ever passed a double blind test on audio cables.

 

"I heard things in the music when the Nordost was plugged in that I just couldn't with my stock cord in." "I think the whole double blind thing is a bust because with this amp, it takes a minimum of 30 seconds between each test. My ears already forgot what it was listening to."

 

So your Nordost made a big improvement in the sound......so big that it can't last more than 30 seconds.


Edited by Astropin - 5/29/14 at 7:26pm
post #709 of 1186
Quote:
Originally Posted by Astropin View Post
 

 

In regards to your link.

 

1) There is no real science on that website.

2) Caelin Gabriel who wrote the "article" and is CEO of Shunyata Research Inc. and as near as I can tell it's sole employee; does not have a college degree and is not a scientist.

3) The "article" deals with POWER cables while we are talking about interconnects.......not that it makes much difference.

 

4) To date....No One, No Where, has ever passed a double blind test on audio cables.

 

"I heard things in the music when the Nordost was plugged in that I just couldn't with my stock cord in." "I think the whole double blind thing is a bust because with this amp, it takes a minimum of 30 seconds between each test. My ears already forgot what it was listening to."

 

So your Nordost made a big improvement in the sound......so big that it can't last more than 30 seconds.

It's not mine; it's back at the store. I could tell the difference during my own comparison, meaning I listen to 15 seconds of a song, notice a particular detail, and then switch. The Nordost had detail that the stock cable did not have. Plain and simple. If I wasn't looking for that detail, I wouldn't be able to tell the difference. 

 

Edit: What is wrong about what's said in that article? Wilson Audio knows a bit about music reproduction, and they use his cables. 


Edited by lids369 - 5/29/14 at 7:49pm
post #710 of 1186

Expectation bias. Just get a monoprice.

post #711 of 1186
Quote:
Originally Posted by lids369 View Post
 

It's not mine; it's back at the store. I could tell the difference during my own comparison, meaning I listen to 15 seconds of a song, notice a particular detail, and then switch. The Nordost had detail that the stock cable did not have. Plain and simple. If I wasn't looking for that detail, I wouldn't be able to tell the difference. 

 

Edit: What is wrong about what's said in that article? Wilson Audio knows a bit about music reproduction, and they use his cables. 


Plain and simple, since you are looking for that detail, you will think you found it when you know the cable has changed. 

 

As for the article, what about it is scientific?  Analogies (which are deceptive if one isn't careful) to a waterhose, pleas that believe us it matters, and obfuscation saying there are lots of opinions, please where is the meat of the article?  What part of it is convincing to you?

 

Wilson makes some fine speakers, some of the best I have heard, but they sound that way with or without Shunyata cabling. 

post #712 of 1186
Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Hills View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by SilverEars View Post
 

Hi, I recently had a discussion today with a headfier regarding cables for iems.  A iem has a impedance graph that dips as low as 4ohms.  He told me a cable can be up to 1ohm/foot impedance.  That value is significant in relation to the impedance of the phone.

 

Does 1ohm/foot exist?

 

That's almost exactly the resistance of a strand of 40 AWG wire. I doubt anyone is using conductors that small. (A human hair is appoximately the same diameter as 40 to 44 AWG wire.)


well if it's only about impedance, it's pretty easy to lower it by use of 1/R= 1/R1+1/R2+1/R3.... by multiplying the braids (each insulated from the other, up to jack).

but it's bound to have consequences elsewhere (big stiff cable for iem might not be super fun). and the surface receiving EMI will be that much bigger too, etc.

 

 

@ lids369 did you create an account to avoid any risk of troll? sorry it's the first thought I had yesterday.

what about all the wire running inside your walls, outside to a pole, etc? how adding 2meters of something "possibly good" to hundreds of meters of the most basic electric copper wire, could make any kind of difference? I just can't see it. oh but they have the answer here http://www.gcaudio.com/resources/howtos/powercords.html . that article made me laugh tbh, did it really explain anything to you? it's stating random stuff, but I don't see any conclusive point telling us to do this instead of that. "EMI must be filtered", "or not". "the last part is the first part of the circuit", and is pretty much just a part so why does it matter? very strange article indeed. whatever need to filter the current, the amp manufacturer could do it, they don't wait for super power cord guy to come save them. this makes no sens. and then it talks about all the stuff that shouldn't be in a power cord, and use those to justify why sound could change... crazy way of thinking.

 

placebo I'm know and understand very well. you pay more attention, so you hear more details. that I also understand. people with 50k audio gears being reluctant to go with a 10$ power cord, I also understand, but that is about human behavior, not rational thinking or physical needs for the amp. if I'm a billionaire, will I go get a more expensive coca cola just because cheap stuff stands out? probably in front of my rich friends...

and the fact that the brand does some wiring for NASA, well it means they could do the wiring needed for NASA, how is that relevant for audio? I know some great brands that do ethernet cables, that doesn't convince me to go there to get my power cord. it's nice advertising, but that's it.

 

and even taking that strange idea of a power cord being meaningful for audio to the end. if adding a small length of good stuff before an amp could significantly improve an amp, don't you think that all amp manufacturers would roll 2meters of said cable inside the box of the amp? boom best audio trick ever! take that competition, I put the great power cord inside the box! ^_^

if going from one power cord to another had any significance, then wouldn't just getting rid of that extra length be the ultimate way to improve sound? just soldering the wires inside the power outlet to my amp should make wonders to improve my sound. and taking my amp to the power plant, I dare say it would be the ultimate experience. minimum EMI, premium grade electrons, what a treat.

 

I'm pretty sure that turning my lights off would physically have more impact on my amp than your power cord. I can think of zero reason why it could be anything but a scam. like most expensive cables.

post #713 of 1186
Quote:
Originally Posted by x838nwy View Post


I totally get where you're coming from and based on my own attempts (with interconnects) i think that a dbx is not going to be able to answer the question we're asking. I've covered expectation bias earlier but since my little tests i've also been in touch with a few people in the industry and really there are other factors involved not least important of which are psychological.
If you don't tell the listener that there may or may not be a difference then you're highly unlike to find anyone detecting any difference even between amplifiers. So you have to tell them, but then it turns into an exercise of a.)discovering for themselves what those differences are - and if they exist and b.)detecting those differences with any kind of accuracy. It's not just audio but also for things like telling differences between to digital cameras also - it's about knowing where to look and once you do look in the right places, you still have to interpret what you see. Some would say this is just training your bias but i think it's impossible to do one without affecting the other. Some might say that if you have to train to hear the difference then it's surely not worth it, but often things don't have immediately apparent, suddenly palpable effect.
What i would say as the bottom line though, is that even if it is never possible to answer the question of whether cables (of all types) make a difference, cables will remain for me quite low in my "sound/$" list. Along with all the expensive cables i already own, I will continue to use bjc as my reference/par cables and avoid freebies for quality reasons.


You know abx testing by audiophiles is different than is done in research.  There is skin on the line about whether you hear well, some ego involvement etc with audiophile challenges. True with training and some supervision there are some aspects of sound you previously didn't bother with as significant that later you can.  Learning to play a musical instrument forever changes how you listen to music as well.  Ditto for trying to do some sound recording of your own.  But how do you separate the real from the 'training of bias'?  Well the abx test.  If you are trained to hear a real difference you then can hear it blind when before you may not.  If after the training blinding yourself makes it disappear then it wasn't real in the first place.

 

Much of real research into human hearing ability isn't at all like that done with audiophile egos on the line in a challenge.  Volunteers are brought in, have the test procedure explained and asked to see if they can hear something or not.  I volunteered for such in my college years before I was an 'audiophile'.  Very different and mostly unstressed test environment.  Was paid for my time with nothing hinging on doing well or not.  Still I did try and do well just wasn't stressed as no claims about my abilities were made ahead of time.  Instead the testing was simply that....testing of what my abilities were.   One was hearing words obscured by noise, picking out words from several spoken together was another, and some tests of thresholds in various ways.  Did some volunteering for some sight related testing too.  Again just walk in, and test your abilities.  You weren't even sure what was being tested for ahead of time. 

 

So the often cited complaint abx testing is stressful and obscures abilities in casual listening may or may not have merit.  But it is wholly different than genuine research done into the hearing abilities of humans.  Not like saying beforehand, "ha, they are doing tests to see if you can hear speaker cables, I know I will ace that.  You watch and see I am perceptive as heck".  So quit listening to shills in the industry who live lavishly separating you from your money.  Cables, interconnect etc just don't matter the way the high end accessories industry tells you it does.  There is a wonderful stress free audiophile existence awaiting you if you can just let go of your bias a little bit.  Monoprice is your friend.  Though BJC is alright if you need a little more coaxing.

post #714 of 1186
Quote:
Originally Posted by castleofargh View Post
 


well if it's only about impedance, it's pretty easy to lower it by use of 1/R= 1/R1+1/R2+1/R3.... by multiplying the braids (each insulated from the other, up to jack).

but it's bound to have consequences elsewhere (big stiff cable for iem might not be super fun). and the surface receiving EMI will be that much bigger too, etc.

 

 

@ lids369 did you create an account to avoid any risk of troll? sorry it's the first thought I had yesterday.

what about all the wire running inside your walls, outside to a pole, etc? how adding 2meters of something "possibly good" to hundreds of meters of the most basic electric copper wire, could make any kind of difference? I just can't see it. oh but they have the answer here http://www.gcaudio.com/resources/howtos/powercords.html . that article made me laugh tbh, did it really explain anything to you? it's stating random stuff, but I don't see any conclusive point telling us to do this instead of that. "EMI must be filtered", "or not". "the last part is the first part of the circuit", and is pretty much just a part so why does it matter? very strange article indeed. whatever need to filter the current, the amp manufacturer could do it, they don't wait for super power cord guy to come save them. this makes no sens. and then it talks about all the stuff that shouldn't be in a power cord, and use those to justify why sound could change... crazy way of thinking.

 

placebo I'm know and understand very well. you pay more attention, so you hear more details. that I also understand. people with 50k audio gears being reluctant to go with a 10$ power cord, I also understand, but that is about human behavior, not rational thinking or physical needs for the amp. if I'm a billionaire, will I go get a more expensive coca cola just because cheap stuff stands out? probably in front of my rich friends...

and the fact that the brand does some wiring for NASA, well it means they could do the wiring needed for NASA, how is that relevant for audio? I know some great brands that do ethernet cables, that doesn't convince me to go there to get my power cord. it's nice advertising, but that's it.

 

and even taking that strange idea of a power cord being meaningful for audio to the end. if adding a small length of good stuff before an amp could significantly improve an amp, don't you think that all amp manufacturers would roll 2meters of said cable inside the box of the amp? boom best audio trick ever! take that competition, I put the great power cord inside the box! ^_^

if going from one power cord to another had any significance, then wouldn't just getting rid of that extra length be the ultimate way to improve sound? just soldering the wires inside the power outlet to my amp should make wonders to improve my sound. and taking my amp to the power plant, I dare say it would be the ultimate experience. minimum EMI, premium grade electrons, what a treat.

 

I'm pretty sure that turning my lights off would physically have more impact on my amp than your power cord. I can think of zero reason why it could be anything but a scam. like most expensive cables.

 

 

It must be difficult on your kidneys to be so salty. Try out the cables sometime.

post #715 of 1186

The thing about achieving great sound is that there are things that make a big difference and things that make no difference. It isn't about the last 5%. It's about the other 95%. People waste their time on details and ignore the big issues.

post #716 of 1186

If ingesting a small wafer and some wine on a somewhat regular basis can supposedly get me into heaven why in the world can't some "magic" wires allow me to enter audio nirvana? :deadhorse:

post #717 of 1186
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigshot View Post
 

The thing about achieving great sound is that there are things that make a big difference and things that make no difference. It isn't about the last 5%. It's about the other 95%. People waste their time on details and ignore the big issues.

Yeah I understand that. And my system is nowhere to being close to 95% done. I just thought I would try out that power cord to see if it made a difference, and it did, but that $290 would be better saved for Audeze's or a badass dac

post #718 of 1186
Quote:
Originally Posted by shockdoc View Post
 

If ingesting a small wafer and some wine on a somewhat regular basis can supposedly get me into heaven why in the world can't some "magic" wires allow me to enter audio nirvana? :deadhorse:


Because the wafer wasn't made with oxygen free dough, and the wine did not receive cryogenic treatment. 

post #719 of 1186
Quote:
Originally Posted by lids369 View Post
 

I just thought I would try out that power cord to see if it made a difference, and subjectively, I think it did, though I cannot prove it - nor is there any science to suggest that it even could.

 

Fixed that for you. 

post #720 of 1186
Quote:
Originally Posted by lids369 View Post
 

I just thought I would try out that power cord to see if it made a difference, and it did, but that $290 would be better saved for Audeze's or a badass dac

 

You want me to help you cut to the chase with that choice too?

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