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Audiophile cables, an interesting question. - Page 47

post #691 of 1186

I think the funniest thing is the "168 hours break in period". What happens if I only break in 167 hours? :tongue:

post #692 of 1186
Quote:
Originally Posted by x838nwy View Post

Here you go: http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue14/spdif.htm

Oh no! Not the emperical audio guy!

Cheers
post #693 of 1186

Okay, the Empirical guy suggests many digital cables take about 2 nanoseconds per foot.  But that would only be true if they had a propagation velocity of about 50% the speed of light.  Now even cheap RG6 or RG 59 with PE insulation is at 66%, and of course still relatively inexpensive cables with teflon will be up around 80% or more.  So all of Mr. Nugent's suppositions are off by a goodly margin.  So rather than speeding up the transport, maybe one needs to speed up the wire for a few pennies extra. Or better yet, one needs to speed up the time one ponders such claims before dismissing them as more misinformation.  (all brought to you of course by the incredibly aptly named Positive Feedback mag)Heck, a nanosecond should be plenty of time for that.


Edited by esldude - 5/29/14 at 1:57am
post #694 of 1186
Quote:
Originally Posted by x838nwy View Post
 

 

FYI, "VIDAR" is a machine Nordost uses to break-in their cables. Some of their dealers have one. I think there's one selling on ebay for about $3,500.

 

Also, isn't there an article somewhere that says that s/pdif cables can actually be too short, specially if there an impedance mis-match or something like that? I'll look for it...

 

I saw that as well. It makes me very sad. Essentially, what they've described is a device that pumps white noise through the cable. IF it were important to break in a cable, it could be done for free by looping a white noise track.

 

the emperical audio guy's article starts by relying on the assumption that the 75 Ohm input is terminated improperly before his analysis begins. Then he relys on nanosecond scale jitter being an audible effect. I don't think the article is very realistic.

 

Cheers

post #695 of 1186

caveat lector, indeed... empirical audio, doesn't always translate to "audible" audio or even "measurable" audio. 

post #696 of 1186
Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Hills View Post

Fail.
Step 1: Arrange your system so that you can't see which power cable is plugged in. For example, a sheet of cardboard taped over the power socket area.
Step 2: Listen to the cables in turn until you're confident you can tell which one is in use.
Step 3: Leave the room.
Step 4: Get someone else to switch the cables (or not) and record which one is in use.
Step 5: Listen. Decide which cable you're listening to. Write it down.
Step 6: Repeat from Step 3 for a statistically significant number of tries (Greater than 10, the more the better.)
Step 7: Compare your list of choices against the cable switcher's list.

If you get significantly more than 50% right (95% to be pretty sure), you might really be hearing a difference.

That is not a proper double blind test!

Double blind means neither the listener or the "changer" know which cable is which. The cables are covered so that they are indistinguishable from one another. But they are labeled by a third party who is not present during the switching. Only they hold the key as to which cable is which.

Run the test many times. Only the switcher knows which cable is being listened to.....and all they know is it's "A" or "B" (or whatever). But they never tell the listener which one is in place. They only say "do you prefer this one or this one? Sometimes they are actually switching and sometimes they are not.

If cables "clearly" make a difference then you should be able to blow through this test saying "1st one was better" or "they sounded the same (if "A" was replaced with "A" that time)" etc.....

If your not close to 100% then cables don't CLEARLY make a difference. Doughnuts to Dollars you'll be closer to 50% if you run enough trials.
Edited by Astropin - 5/29/14 at 8:44am
post #697 of 1186
Quote:
Originally Posted by elmoe View Post
 

I think the funniest thing is the "168 hours break in period". What happens if I only break in 167 hours? :tongue:


!68 hours is exactly one week. But it sounds more impressive to say 168 hours rather than one week.

 

If you run them 167 hours you only get 99.4 % break-in.  Actually that's not true because everyone knows that break-in is a logarithmic thing, don't we?

post #698 of 1186
Quote:
Originally Posted by Astropin View Post


That is not a proper double blind test!

Double blind means neither the listener or the "changer" know which cable is which. The cables are covered so that they are indistinguishable from one another. But they are labeled by a third party who is not present during the switching. Only they hold the key as to which cable is which.

Run the test many times. Only the switcher knows which cable is being listened to.....and all they know is it's "A" or "B" (or whatever). But they never tell the listener which one is in place. They only say "do you prefer this one or this one? Sometimes they are actually switching and sometimes they are not.

 

Many years ago the loudspeaker maker NHT came to one of our local hifi shops to showcase their new flagship speaker. As part of the event they offered 10,000 dollars to anyone who could tell the difference between uber expensive cables and common lamp wire during a test like this. Lots of people showed up including some "audiophiles" who were wearing these little cardboard "ear extenders" (for lack of a better term). NHT left with their money. Nobody (at least the night I was there) got better than 65% correct over multiple attempts.

post #699 of 1186
Quote:
Originally Posted by shockdoc View Post
 

 

Many years ago the loudspeaker maker NHT came to one of our local hifi shops to showcase their new flagship speaker. As part of the event they offered 10,000 dollars to anyone who could tell the difference between uber expensive cables and common lamp wire during a test like this. Lots of people showed up including some "audiophiles" who were wearing these little cardboard "ear extenders" (for lack of a better term). NHT left with their money. Nobody (at least the night I was there) got better than 65% correct over multiple attempts.


Correct.....and in a properly set up test.....no one ever will.

post #700 of 1186
Quote:
Originally Posted by shockdoc View Post

Many years ago the loudspeaker maker NHT came to one of our local hifi shops to showcase their new flagship speaker. As part of the event they offered 10,000 dollars to anyone who could tell the difference between uber expensive cables and common lamp wire during a test like this. Lots of people showed up including some "audiophiles" who were wearing these little cardboard "ear extenders" (for lack of a better term). NHT left with their money. Nobody (at least the night I was there) got better than 65% correct over multiple attempts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Astropin View Post


Correct.....and in a properly set up test.....no one ever will.

135363_8.jpg

WAT!??
post #701 of 1186

About five years ago, there was a speaker cable demonstration.  Can't call it a test, because it wasn't all that formal.

 

The cables were:

 

Belden 8477 12 AWG speaker cable
Belden 8782 24 AWG zip cord
Romex house wiring
Car jumper cables
Barbed wire
300-ohm TV antenna twin-lead
3/8-inch steel hanging cable
 
****************************************
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
And the winner was - the300-ohm TV antenna twin-lead
 
 

 

post #702 of 1186

Hi, I recently had a discussion today with a headfier regarding cables for iems.  A iem has a impedance graph that dips as low as 4ohms.  He told me a cable can be up to 1ohm/foot impedance.  That value is significant in relation to the impedance of the phone.

 

Does 1ohm/foot exist?

post #703 of 1186
Quote:
Originally Posted by Astropin View Post


That is not a proper double blind test! ...

 

I didn't say it was. But it's close enough for rock'n'roll, provided that the cable swapper and the listener don't interact for the duration of the test. And it only needs 1 helper instead of 2, making it more likely for someone to actually do it. You still have to be careful performing it, for example always unplugging the just auditioned cable before plugging in either the same one or the other one. I agree with the rest of your post.

 

In any case, if you can't do better than chance in a single-blind test as I described, there's little point in going to full double-blind - the results won't be any different.

post #704 of 1186
Quote:
Originally Posted by ab initio View Post
 


These assertions lack evidence, which won't fly here in the sound science forum.

 

Your schiit Lyr has a huge, over-designed power supply section, especially considering the HD600's don't require a lot of power (high impedance, low current). If you want to claim that your power cord is actually causing and audible change the the sound reproduced by your amp and headphones, then you will need to get a friend to help you perform an double blind test to prove that you can discern an audible difference when swapping cords.

 

Did your cat chew through your last power cable by any chance? Unless your power cable is malfunctioning, it has no impact on the sound of a headphone amplifier.

 

Cheers

This Schiit Lyr pulls a max of 30 Watts from the wall, when the power cable was pulled off of a Mark Levinson amp consuming closer to 1000 watts, which leads me to conclude that the power supply in the Schiit is anything but huge and over designed. It has a power supply along the lines of a preamp, and there is never too much power, by the way.

 

I heard things in the music when the Nordost was plugged in that I just couldn't with my stock cord in.

 

I think the whole double blind thing is a bust because with this amp, it takes a minimum of 30 seconds between each test. My ears already forgot what it was listening to. Instead, I would put on a song, notice details, commit those details to my short term memory, and then switch them out. I don't need to do a full blown study on the damn cables, especially to appease people who are armchair engineers, when I have the degree, and I can pick them up for just a $100. The science makes absolute sense when you think about it correctly. This article cleared a lot of the science up for me: http://www.gcaudio.com/resources/howtos/powercords.html

 

I would never recommend someone to buy this stuff off of what I wrote. I am just recommending that people try it out. That's the same logic the store I worked at during summers used. They would let everyone take home cables, and if they noticed a positive difference warranting the cost, they would buy them. They never had a problem selling cables. 

 

I used to be a skeptic, but then I realized everyone who was telling me that these power cords work have 30-40 years of experience in this stuff, and own incredible systems costing $50k (some of them made that money being electrical engineers), and everyone who was telling me these don't work ran a crappy Chinese $100 DAC/Amp combo to a set of M50s, so I tried them out.

 

If you really are so concerned with Nordost writing things on their website that you can't understand, ask them. I think they know a bit about wiring, since they worked on the wiring for the space shuttle program with NASA.

post #705 of 1186
Quote:
Originally Posted by SilverEars View Post

Hi, I recently had a discussion today with a headfier regarding cables for iems.  A iem has a impedance graph that dips as low as 4ohms.  He told me a cable can be up to 1ohm/foot impedance.  That value is significant in relation to the impedance of the phone.

Does 1ohm/foot exist?

Wikisearch "resistivity". In basic terms, uniform copper conductors are (1.68e-8)/A Ohms/meter.

If you were to have 1 Ohm/foot you're looking at A = 1.68e-8 / 3.281 => about 81 microns diameter according to my iphone calculator.

That's about 80% of the diameter of hair (human, from the head). So while it IS possible, i wouldn't advise making iem cable out of it of you want to move your head without breaking the cable.
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