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Audiophile cables, an interesting question. - Page 28

post #406 of 1186

Cables are simple to figure out, just look at the metal's properties

 

Copper: has a warm color, reddish/brown - cable believers thus say it is a "warm" sounding, "muddy" cable.

 

Silver: silver is shiny gray used by jewelers, whats easily associated with "speed" and " attention to detail", cable believers thus say it is a "fast, detailed" cable.

 

Gold: dark yellowish color, gold is the best of both worlds, both "fast and detailed" yet also "warm".

 

Look at cable reviews and 99% of them say exactly what I just said above. Basically, cable believers correlate the cable's color to the type of sound, and all science and measurements aside, if that doesn't prove it's a load of rubbish I don't know what will.

post #407 of 1186
Quote:
Originally Posted by elmoe View Post

Cables are simple to figure out, just look at the metal's properties

Copper: has a warm color, reddish/brown - cable believers thus say it is a "warm" sounding, "muddy" cable.

Silver: silver is shiny gray used by jewelers, whats easily associated with "speed" and " attention to detail", cable believers thus say it is a "fast, detailed" cable.

Gold: dark yellowish color, gold is the best of both worlds, both "fast and detailed" yet also "warm".

Look at cable reviews and 99% of them say exactly what I just said above. Basically, cable believers correlate the cable's color to the type of sound, and all science and measurements aside, if that doesn't prove it's a load of rubbish I don't know what will.

Which explains why my cables - made from angel's pubic hairs - sound fuzzy.
post #408 of 1186
Quote:
Originally Posted by x838nwy View Post

It is my personal belief that the difference between silver and copper result is due to the fact that as comparisons are normally done between similarly priced cables, the silver cable in the comparison is usually smaller in section/awg. And yes, i remain of the Moulder camp on this one still.

And my unicorn told me the source selector arrived today at my forwarder. I should have it next week to play with.


Your personal belief does not line up with vetted science.

Why does it seem like every couple of months, someone believes that they are about to discover something new about cables with such a basic and obviously previously tested model?  One that has been repeatedly proven to be incorrect in DBT and other valid testing methodologies?  And also shows no measurable audible differences?

 

Or another tact:

If silver is significantly better than copper, why don't we use it in applications that actually matter - those where lives are at risk?  Do you believe that the space shuttle, airplanes, and medical devices use silver rather than copper?

 

Any cable that changes sound is either fundamentally broken or intentionally designed to be inaccurate.  No issue with anyone who likes those characteristics, but personal choice isn't a functional cable property.  The previous statement assumes we aren't discussing something ridiculous like a 1000 mile long cable.

post #409 of 1186
Befreedma, you missed my point.

Dude, i'm stating that basically as a fact. For the same cost, the silver will be smaller gauge thus it's like comparing copper wires of different gauges which there are several proofs that gauges matter up to a point. So comparing silver vs. copper is usually not actually about materials but more about comparing wire gauges as the physical size difference matters more that material differences. This is demonstrable by calculation. If size has no audible effect, material difference has effects orders of magnitude lower. Jesus, stating things humbly isn't allowed any more?

The reason i was not totally definitive is that i cannot possibly comment on ALL cable comparisons ever published by man, Is that okay?
Edited by x838nwy - 4/17/14 at 8:06am
post #410 of 1186
Quote:
Originally Posted by x838nwy View Post

Befreedma, you missed my point.

Dude, i'm stating that basically as a fact. For the same cost, the silver will be smaller gauge thus it's like comparing wires of different gauges which there are several proofs that gauges matter up to a point. Jesus, stating things humbly isn't allowed any more?


First you can link the list of tests that fit your criteria.  Some general statement of cost has no relationship between actually testing two specific cables.  Which two cables are you comparing?  What are the wire gauges of those two cables?  Do you know the length of the cable that would be required to generate a difference within the realistic realm of human hearing?

Then you can explain the relative signal loss between the conductor sizes and correlate that with audible differences.

 

Good luck - you're going to need it.

post #411 of 1186
Quote:
Originally Posted by bfreedma View Post
 

Or another tact:

If silver is significantly better than copper, why don't we use it in applications that actually matter - those where lives are at risk?  Do you believe that the space shuttle, airplanes, and medical devices use silver rather than copper?

In some cases, airplanes (and possibly the Shuttle, though I don't know about that one) use aluminum for wiring because its conductance per unit weight is better than copper (even though its absolute conductance is worse than copper). That of course is an entirely different issue than the supposed difference between silver and copper wiring for audiophiles though.

post #412 of 1186
Quote:
Originally Posted by cjl View Post
 

In some cases, airplanes (and possibly the Shuttle, though I don't know about that one) use aluminum for wiring because its conductance per unit weight is better than copper (even though its absolute conductance is worse than copper). That of course is an entirely different issue than the supposed difference between silver and copper wiring for audiophiles though.

 

Absolutely correct - aluminum is used because of the significant weight difference which outweighs the requirement for a larger gauge to make up for the lower conductance.  As you suggest, it isn't used because copper isn't an acceptable metal to allow for safe signal transmission.

 

If x838nwy's claim was that silver (or aluminum) was preferable because he wanted a lighter weight or more ergonomic cable, that would be a different discussion.  The claim that there is a material and audible difference in sound between silver and copper is where I take issue with his statement.

post #413 of 1186
Quote:
Originally Posted by x838nwy View Post

Befreedma, you missed my point.

Dude, i'm stating that basically as a fact. For the same cost, the silver will be smaller gauge thus it's like comparing copper wires of different gauges which there are several proofs that gauges matter up to a point. So comparing silver vs. copper is usually not actually about materials but more about comparing wire gauges as the physical size difference matters more that material differences. This is demonstrable by calculation. If size has no audible effect, material difference has effects orders of magnitude lower. Jesus, stating things humbly isn't allowed any more?

The reason i was not totally definitive is that i cannot possibly comment on ALL cable comparisons ever published by man, Is that okay?


Since you edited your post, some additional information.

 

Everything you need to know about wire conductivity can be found here:  http://www.roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htm

 

No need to rebuild the wheel.

post #414 of 1186
Quote:
Originally Posted by bfreedma View Post


First you can link the list of tests that fit your criteria.  Some general statement of cost has no relationship between actually testing two specific cables.  Which two cables are you comparing?  What are the wire gauges of those two cables?  Do you know the length of the cable that would be required to generate a difference within the realistic realm of human hearing?
Then you can explain the relative signal loss between the conductor sizes and correlate that with audible differences.

Good luck - you're going to need it.

Dude, have you read my posts?
There are several articles about speaker wire gauges. Google them. They're quite scientific and some has maths in them. Heck, it's probably on wikipedia.
What i'm saying is that if we keep cable prices constant, a silver wire is usually smaller than the copper wire. It's just a cost thing. People compare them and think the difference is due to materials but in fact it's more to do with wire size because it has more of an effect on electrical properties of the wire.

Off the top of my head:
Resistance = ro x length / cross section
Ro of copper and silver are very close (1.6 vs 1.7 or something) which is accountable by a ~3% increase in sectional area. I recall things like capacitance have similar formulas.

So size matters more than material.
post #415 of 1186
Quote:
Originally Posted by x838nwy View Post


Dude, have you read my posts?
There are several articles about speaker wire gauges. Google them. They're quite scientific and some has maths in them. Heck, it's probably on wikipedia.
What i'm saying is that if we keep cable prices constant, a silver wire is usually smaller than the copper wire. It's just a cost thing. People compare them and think the difference is due to materials but in fact it's more to do with wire size because it has more of an effect on electrical properties of the wire.

Off the top of my head:
Resistance = ro x length / cross section
Ro of copper and silver are very close (1.6 vs 1.7 or something) which is accountable by a ~3% increase in sectional area. I recall things like capacitance have similar formulas.

So size matters more than material.

 

I already posted a link to Roger Russell's wire guide.

 

Run the math - post exactly how much difference there is in two 6 foot cables - one silver (slightly smaller gauge) and one copper (slightly larger gauge).  Then run the math that demonstrates that the difference is audible.  The point I'm making is that the differences in gauge that you describe are simply not audible.  Given that, I also disagree that people hear actual differences between cables, whether of different material or slightly different gauge. 

 

Do you really think this is the first time this topic has been discussed and that the results are still a mystery?

post #416 of 1186
Quote:
Originally Posted by x838nwy View Post
 

This is fairly interesting:

 

The TQ Effect

 

Just popping in to point out that none of those graphs are measurements. They're spice simulations (looks like LTSpice to me).

post #417 of 1186
Quote:
Originally Posted by bfreedma View Post

I already posted a link to Roger Russell's wire guide.

Run the math - post exactly how much difference there is in two 6 foot cables - one silver (slightly smaller gauge) and one copper (slightly larger gauge).  Then run the math that demonstrates that the difference is audible.  The point I'm making is that the differences in gauge that you describe are simply not audible.  Given that, I also disagree that people hear actual differences between cables, whether of different material or slightly different gauge. 

Do you really think this is the first time this topic has been discussed and that the results are still a mystery?

Okay, in the link you posted, go down to the table where it says maximum wire length for 2 conductor copper wires.
I the speaker is a 4 ohm load and the test length is 10ft. One wire at 20awg would be considered fine but another at 22awg would be not okay according to the table. So a 22awg silver wire would not be as good as a 20awg copper. In fact, they two could both be copper and the same results will stand, give or take a little.
post #418 of 1186
Quote:
Originally Posted by cjl View Post
 

In some cases, airplanes (and possibly the Shuttle, though I don't know about that one) use aluminum for wiring because its conductance per unit weight is better than copper (even though its absolute conductance is worse than copper). That of course is an entirely different issue than the supposed difference between silver and copper wiring for audiophiles though.

 

God man, don't give cable builders any new ideas... Now we're going to see "aluminum cables" - "as seen in airplanes and space shuttles!!" ads.

post #419 of 1186
Quote:
Originally Posted by bfreedma View Post


If x838nwy's claim was that silver (or aluminum) was preferable because he wanted a lighter weight or more ergonomic cable, that would be a different discussion.  The claim that there is a material and audible difference in sound between silver and copper is where I take issue with his statement.

Found it.
This was never my claim. My claim was that for the same price point, silver wires tend to be a smaller gauge and the size difference accounts for any difference audible. Not the material.
post #420 of 1186
Quote:
Originally Posted by elmoe View Post

God man, don't give cable builders any new ideas... Now we're going to see "aluminum cables" - "as seen in airplanes and space shuttles!!" ads.

You'll be pleased to know there already is a range of audiophile cable called aluminata. I hear it's awesome.
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