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Is Sansa Clip + really that good?! - Page 26  

post #376 of 467
Quote:
Originally Posted by skamp View Post

It's been done to death, long before he made his measurements, with clear instructions and explanations. It was his choice to release incomplete and erroneous (in the case of the iPod) measurements.

The TP lives in its own reality distortion field anyway, given its ridiculous price, its utter lack of features and its obvious technical flaws (high frequency roll-off, high output impedance). Measurements will only convince those who are already convinced. Audiophiles will buy it no matter what. Subjective and objective comparisons will be rejected on both sides, respectively. This is a dead-end.

Do you actually know that the iPod measurements are erroneous? He suggests more than once that he thinks the device is faulty. I've now seen different people assert that the test or tester is at fault, not the device, but nobody says why they think so.

Does price matter in assessing sound quality? I think price is subject to very simple market forces that Mr Altmann seems to understand very well (and which may account for his cheerful writing style).

As far as I can tell the high frequency roll off is inherent to non-oversampling DACs and this is not being introduced by a low pass filter or by his design error. In this case are they all technically flawed?

Can one say that a device for playing music is flawed without hearing it, on the strength of some apparently inadequate measurements? If so then why would anyone need to perform listening tests?

How awful a crime is 10 ohm headphone output? He publishes the figure and states prominently, clearly and more than once the headphone he used in designing his player. I have similar Koss 60 ohm earphones running from a receiver with 8 ohm headphone jack and it drives them well and they sound really nice. The same earphones on the Clip+ sound quite unpleasant because despite its better/lower impedance it hasn't the power to drive them. So power matters as well as output impedance and sometimes it matters more.

In saying "This is a dead-end" you might be right but then why bother commenting?

The part of the article that interested me the most was its short description of non-oversampling DACs and links to more detailed discussion and description. I tried to remember all the CD players and DACs and receivers and MD recorders I've owned, dating back about 20 years, checked the specs via google and I'm pretty certain I never owned a NOS DAC. I realise that I might never have even heard a non-oversampling DAC, or at least been aware of it. I also can't afford one right now.

I can read Mr Altmann's entertaining prose without feeling tempted to make him richer, or angry that he makes stuff I can't afford, or annoyed by his claims or methods. I don't see anything from him that justified some people suggesting he is dishonest or deceitful. I have seen that he is disliked and even libelled by some people who have no relationship with him, and that his player is disliked by people who have never heard it.
post #377 of 467

It has HF roll-off since that's a common side-effect of NOS, or should I say, a side-effect of 44.1kHz content.  It won't have any HF roll-off with 96kHz or higher content, if it can play that.  Another solution is upsampling, if it can do that.


Edited by Theta Alpha 1 - 5/29/13 at 4:03am
post #378 of 467
Quote:
Originally Posted by Theta Alpha 1 View Post

The exact output impedance isn't ascertained since the Russian tests said 50 ohm.

Surely that is less likely to be accurate than the official figures of 10 and 20 because he designed and tested the player with 60 ohm headphones.
post #379 of 467
Quote:
Originally Posted by julian67 View Post


Surely that is less likely to be accurate than the official figures of 10 and 20 because he designed and tested the player with 60 ohm headphones.

I don't understand what your motives are. You seem to have a penchant to nitpick just about anything that isn't really relevant or significant whilst throwing in a good measure of inane comments or conjuring up rather disturbing scenarios.

 

Just what is the point?

I could deride you and mock you for your unwavering faith in the Tera player, Mr Altmann's supposed objectivity and the likelihood that his DAP is indeed countless universes above all others. 

 

Yes the Tera will sound better at fixed volume levels than the HM-801 which has a cliff like treble roll off. 

 

And again, you seem to mock others that they are biased when you are more biased yourself. Discard the Russian data. Why? If anything the Russian data should be more reliable when considering the conflict of interests. 

Why would I want an ABX or a DBT? It's also to remove my own 'bias'. Yes I do believe the Tera is utter nonsense and would be happy to place a good sum of money that it won't be galaxies above every and other existing DAPs on the market. I am entitled to hold this opinion. You may call it bias, but I believe it is a more reasonable take on things than that of Mr Altmann's.

 

Following your stream of thought, I might actually possess telepathy so I would like to request that you stop with your bias. Or maybe do you possess telepathy yourself?

 

Leaving aside my telepathy prowess, I have had several email exchanges with Charles, where I asked him some questions regarding the Tera. Not a single coherent response was provided. Other than, here is the price, here are the descriptions and reviews etc. 


Edited by uchihaitachi - 5/29/13 at 9:37am
post #380 of 467
Thread Starter 

The reason this is funny is because the Clip+ costs £25. For that money you would not expect it to be even comparable to players costing 5x as much.

post #381 of 467
Quote:
Originally Posted by uchihaitachi View Post

I have had a few email exchanged with Charles, where I asked him some questions regarding the Tera. Not a single coherent response was provided.

Yup, sounds like him alright. My guess is that he tries hard to preserve the whole mystique around the TP, because without it, the TP has no redeeming qualities. I also think that the ridiculous price increase (by 100%, from a former price that was already outrageous) has the same goal. If it's über-expensive, some people will assume it's god-like.
Edited by skamp - 5/29/13 at 7:53am
post #382 of 467
Quote:
Originally Posted by skamp View Post


Yup, sounds like him alright. My guess is that he tries hard to preserve the whole mystique around the TP, because without it, the TP has no redeeming qualities. I also think that the ridiculous price increase (by 100%, from a former price that was already outrageous) has the same goal. If it's über-expensive, some people will assume it's god-like.

The ingredients of the ULTIMATE DAP.

 

Made in Germany laser engraved, max out the number of compromises the device can have, top it off with the most exorbitant price tag and a fancy foreign name. All hail the Ultimate DAP. 

post #383 of 467
Thread Starter 

LOL that tera player looks NICEEE... Complete with a 90's style website... It must be a joke?

 

I just read the review of the Tera player on Headphonia.... Hmmm I think I will stop reading reviews from that site...


Edited by nicholars - 5/29/13 at 8:20am
post #384 of 467
Quote:
Originally Posted by nicholars View Post

LOL that tera player looks NICEEE... Complete with a 90's style website... It must be a joke?

 

I just read the review of the Tera player on Headphonia.... Hmmm I think I will stop reading reviews from that site...

LOL did you only come to realise about Headfonia? All the reviews have a perfect correlation between SQ and price tag XD

post #385 of 467
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by uchihaitachi View Post

LOL did you only come to realise about Headfonia? All the reviews have a perfect correlation between SQ and price tag XD

 

lol well I never paid that much attention to the reviews but now I will completely ignore that site!

post #386 of 467
Quote:
Originally Posted by nicholars View Post

lol well I never paid that much attention to the reviews but now I will completely ignore that site!

The best part is the About section on the site where Mike assures everybody that he is objective for all his reviews.
post #387 of 467
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hutnicks View Post

 

Had he not mentioned it I would have thought those were taken from an iPhone not iPod, no wonder they sound so much better with a simple cap mod. Their filtering must be done with caps rejected by the Chinese military.

 

Just far clarifications sake...there is no "cap mod" done on the iPod touch. The cap mods are done on earlier ipods, 5G video, etc. So your statement is a bit off. 

 

I do enjoy my Clip Zip, I also enjoy my modded 5G iPod, and certainly enjoy my 5G touch (which measures and sounds fantastic). I also really enjoy my money pit of a desktop setup. Everything has it's benefits and drawbacks. (portability, cost, SQ, etc etc etc...too much to list) FYI- my rockboxed clip zip/apple earpods is a fantastic budget combo when I don't want to carry thousand dollar ++ of equipment/ CIEM's with me on the go. Sounds pretty damn good, considering the cash outlay. 

 

What I don't understand is why can't people just enjoy what they have and realize everything has strengths and weaknesses. This thread is getting ridiculous. Everybody has preferences, It's not a contest people. Which brings me to my point....What's with this julian67 guy? 

 

EDIT oh yeah, I agree Headfonia is a joke. "Headphoneya" maybe. 


Edited by thegrobe - 5/29/13 at 9:53am
post #388 of 467
Quote:
Originally Posted by thegrobe View Post

 

Just far clarifications sake...there is no "cap mod" done on the iPod touch. The cap mods are done on earlier ipods, 5G video, etc. So your statement is a bit off. 

 

I do enjoy my Clip Zip, I also enjoy my modded 5G iPod, and certainly enjoy my 5G touch (which measures and sounds fantastic). I also really enjoy my money pit of a desktop setup. Everything has it's benefits and drawbacks. (portability, cost, SQ, etc etc etc...too much to list) FYI- my rockboxed clip zip/apple earpods is a fantastic budget combo when I don't want to carry thousand dollar ++ of equipment/ CIEM's with me on the go. Sounds pretty damn good, considering the cash outlay. 

 

What I don't understand is why can't people just enjoy what they have and realize everything has strengths and weaknesses. This thread is getting ridiculous. Everybody has preferences, It's not a contest people. Which brings me to my point....What's with this julian67 guy? 

 

EDIT oh yeah, I agree Headfonia is a joke. "Headphoneya" maybe. 

Headphoneya hahaha nice one, surprised that I never thought of that before. julian67 is, .... I don't know lol.


Edited by uchihaitachi - 5/29/13 at 10:22am
post #389 of 467
Thread Starter 

The more digital sources I try the more sceptical I am getting about the whole thing... I have now ditched my external DAC's and got a Xonar STX sound card. I think most of the decent DAP's are similar and it is more about EQ and sufficient power to drive the headphones / impedance.

 

Sound quality = Speakers / Headphones (100%) > Source File (100%)  > Amplifier (50%) > DAC / DAP (25%)


Edited by nicholars - 5/29/13 at 10:38am
post #390 of 467
And output impedance that doesn't **** up the frequency response of your gear.
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