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Is Sansa Clip + really that good?! - Page 25  

post #361 of 467
Quote:
Originally Posted by julian67 View Post

New(ish) measurements of Clip+, iPod Touch 4G and Altmann Tera-Player : http://www.tera-player.com/Tera-Player_RMAA.html

 

 

Thanks.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by uchihaitachi View Post

The time domain measurements are there to purposefully mislead. The prettiness & the symmetry of the time domain graphs rarely impact the SQ to any audible degree.

 

 

What is your source on this?  Frequency response is tailored in the studio from the microphone to the mixing console, it is then tailored again by EQ, so the frequency response of a headphone or PMP is not paramount at all, it can even be fixed with an equalizer to a greater extent.

 

Settling time, impulse response, square wave performance, phase error, glitch etc. can not be fixed with any kind of equalizer and thus they are of more paramount importance to the final sound.

 

In conclusion, frequency response and cumulative spectral decay are of lesser importance in the total picture, you shouldn't focus on a tree and claim it's a forest unless you have evidence.

 

There are some instances where frequency response is paramount or desired, and in those instances an Etymotic ER-4B will do the trick, I don't see them being used in studios very much however.


Edited by Theta Alpha 1 - 5/28/13 at 7:30pm
post #362 of 467

Please read carefully what I wrote in the previous posts. Especially the part regarding audibility and second order filtering.

 

Anyone here own both the Tera and the Clip+?


Edited by uchihaitachi - 5/28/13 at 7:42pm
post #363 of 467
How about
Quote:
The time domain measurements are there to purposefully mislead.

You're saying both that someone is being misleading and that you know this is not a mistake but actually malicious.

Alleging dishonesty is very unpleasant. Perhaps more remarkable is the ability to read another person's mind with such accuracy and certainty.

Many people don't recognise telepathy and name calling as useful analytical tools.
post #364 of 467
Quote:
Originally Posted by julian67 View Post

How about
You're saying both that someone is being misleading and that you know this is not a mistake but actually malicious.

Alleging dishonesty is very unpleasant. Perhaps more remarkable is the ability to read another person's mind with such accuracy and certainty.

Many people don't recognise telepathy and name calling as useful analytical tools.

The course of discussion seems to deviate in a completely unrelated manner. I have now completely lost track. I had to ask you to re-read what I wrote earlier and it is evidently self explanatory that we are discussing the implications of the output data. 

 

Regardless, I sincerely apologise if my phrasing is of a defamatory nature to Mr Altmann. Perhaps I should have left out the term purposefully. However, I am always inclined to think that ulterior motives (other than hi-fi reproduction of sound) are at play when it comes to the construction and selling of certain 'audiophile grade' players and I believe the Tera player fits under that category from what I have seen and read on this website.

 

Back to my question, anybody own a clip+ and a tera?


Edited by uchihaitachi - 5/28/13 at 8:13pm
post #365 of 467
Quote:
Originally Posted by uchihaitachi View Post

Back to my question, anybody own a clip+ and a tera?

Yes, Mr Altmann.
post #366 of 467
Quote:
Originally Posted by julian67 View Post


Yes, Mr Altmann.

I mean someone who would be willing to do a DBT or ABX. I am sure Mr Altmann will not be subject to any bias whatsoever.... 

post #367 of 467
Quote:
Originally Posted by uchihaitachi View Post

I mean someone who would be willing to do a DBT or ABX. I am sure Mr Altmann will not be subject to any bias whatsoever....

You could ask him instead of making insinuations or assumptions. How do you know if he would be willing without asking? More telepathy?

Explain that without ever hearing the players for yourself you already know how the Tera-Player sounds.
Quote:
the Tera will sound dull and without as much high end detail with that kind of high end rolloff.
(your words)

And that without ever hearing the players for yourself you already concluded that the Clip outperforms the Tera-Player but that the Tera-Player is better than the Hifiman 801.
Quote:
At least the Tera is better than the HM-801. Now that is garbage.
(your words)

Mention that you suspect him to be dishonest, that supposition being based on the behaviour of others, not him.
Quote:
I am always inclined to think that ulterior motives (other than hi-fi reproduction of sound) are at play when it comes to the construction and selling of certain 'audiophile grade' players and I believe the Tera player fits under that category from what I have seen and read on this website.
(your words)

Probably he will do the test and give you a free sample too.

I read Mr Altmann's article. I don't know if the Tera-Player is good, bad or indifferent. But he wrote a very good, readable article, made some interesting tests, links to fuller explanations of some of the points raised, and is straightforward in describing the other players' good points. He doesn't say a bad word about anyone else or make claims about players of which he has no experience.

Someone looks biased and it isn't Mr Altmann.
post #368 of 467
Quote:
Originally Posted by julian67 View Post


I read Mr Altmann's article. I don't know if the Tera-Player is good, bad or indifferent. But he wrote a very good, readable article, made some interesting tests, links to fuller explanations of some of the points raised, and is straightforward in describing the other players' good points. He doesn't say a bad word about anyone else or make claims about players of which he has no experience.

Someone looks biased and it isn't Mr Altmann.

 

Altmann claims "the sound quality of the Tera-Player is countless universes above that of the Sansa-Clip, and galaxies above any other DAP."

 

Conclusion: Altmann is biased.

post #369 of 467
Quote:
Originally Posted by gnarlsagan View Post

Altmann claims "the sound quality of the Tera-Player is countless universes above that of the Sansa-Clip, and galaxies above any other DAP."

Conclusion: Altmann is biased.

But he has actually heard it wink.gif

My Clip+ is countless universes above my Uxcell SDD Card MP3 player
and galaxies above the other players from the same retailer.

I can say that because I own the Clip+ and various Uxcell players and have heard many of their others (just a couple of different hardware but lots of different cases and colours). Conclusion: expressing an informed opinion is not evidence of bias.

Yes Mr Altmann is marketing it and promoting it and is biased in that sense, and in doing so he is sometimes mildly provocative in a good natured or playful way. That doesn't validate people who have assess and rate the player unheard, apparently by magic.

But in comparing the Clip+ and iPod Touch Mr Altmann is not doing so by telepathy, magic, hearsay or supposition - he actually has possession of the players.

In your opinion would he be more or less biased than someone who knows both how a players sounds and how it ranks compared to other players without ever having even heard it?
Edited by julian67 - 5/29/13 at 12:09am
post #370 of 467
Quote:
Originally Posted by julian67 View Post


In your opinion would he be more or less biased than someone who knows both how a players sounds and how it ranks compared to other players without ever having even heard it?

 

Unless he's done a blind ABX then what he's heard means nothing, and even then his subjective opinion is less meaningful still given he sells the product, an obvious conflict of interest. A measurement is much less biased, and -3dB plus above ~10kHz should be pretty audible. Words aren't going to make that measurement go away. 

post #371 of 467
Quote:
Originally Posted by uchihaitachi View Post

Please read carefully what I wrote in the previous posts. Especially the part regarding audibility and second order filtering.

 

Anyone here own both the Tera and the Clip+?

 

Human audibility in audio equipment isn't determined.  Even if you disagree, consider the notion.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by uchihaitachi View Post

I mean someone who would be willing to do a DBT or ABX. I am sure Mr Altmann will not be subject to any bias whatsoever.... 

 

(EDIT) A-ha... you mean a blind test to decide which one sounds better?

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by gnarlsagan View Post

 

Unless he's done a blind ABX then what he's heard means nothing, and even then his subjective opinion is less meaningful still given he sells the product, an obvious conflict of interest. A measurement is much less biased, and -3dB plus above ~10kHz should be pretty audible. Words aren't going to make that measurement go away. 

 

Given he sells the product, there's an obvious conflict of interest, yup.

 

-xdB at 16kHz is surely audible yup, his notion is the higher square-wave performance of his NOS design is more audible, but a Russian site didn't measure the Tera Player with performance like that at all!


Edited by Theta Alpha 1 - 5/29/13 at 1:21am
post #372 of 467
@gnarlsagan

Unless you have done the abx test then your opinion on the player is worse than worthless, because:

you insist that others must meet a particular standard to be credible but in the very next sentence give yourself a pass and offer an opinion about sound quality based on no tests and no hearing.

That's two people so far who have managed to pronounce on sound quality without hearing the product. Both also insist that others perform abx tests.

That is actually laughable.

If anyone who didn't hear the Tera-Player refrained from asserting to know its sound then it would be possible to talk about the stuff in Altmann's comparison that is interesting.
Edited by julian67 - 5/29/13 at 1:38am
post #373 of 467
He still hasn't done loaded tests, which would reveal some problems with some headphones / IEMs. There's nothing much interesting in his measurements to discuss.
post #374 of 467
"Interesting" is a personal view and the page contains more than measurements. I found it interesting and also entertaining.

He did these RMAA tests as the result of requests so perhaps someone interested enough to comment on his tests and article, but also not satisfied by it, could suggest suitable improvements to the author?
post #375 of 467
Quote:
Originally Posted by julian67 View Post

He did these RMAA tests as the result of requests so perhaps someone interested enough to comment on his tests and article, but also not satisfied by it, could suggest suitable improvements to the author?

It's been done to death, long before he made his measurements, with clear instructions and explanations. It was his choice to release incomplete and erroneous (in the case of the iPod) measurements.

The TP lives in its own reality distortion field anyway, given its ridiculous price, its utter lack of features and its obvious technical flaws (high frequency roll-off, high output impedance). Measurements will only convince those who are already convinced. Audiophiles will buy it no matter what. Subjective and objective comparisons will be rejected on both sides, respectively. This is a dead-end.
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