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Is Sansa Clip + really that good?! - Page 17  

post #241 of 467
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by saratoga View Post

 

To be clear, a parametric EQ is one that allows arbitrary changes to the frequency response.  "sub bass" is usually <100Hz.  Just set an EQ band at 50 Hz, and crank it up as much as you like, and then add some precut so it doesn't distort.  

 

By sub bass I meant  < 50hz.... The player can do mid bass but not much sub bass... I doubt any sort of EQ will change this... Although maybe if it is user definable like you say it would be possible to boost lower freq... although it is prob a limitation of the player tbh.


Edited by nicholars - 1/24/13 at 4:32pm
post #242 of 467
Quote:
Originally Posted by nicholars View Post

 

By sub bass I meant  < 50hz.... The player can do mid bass but not much sub bass... I doubt any sort of EQ will change this... Although maybe if it is user definable like you say it would be possible to boost lower freq... although it is prob a limitation of the player tbh.

 

How is it a limitation of the player? If you use EQ to boost a frequency, isn't it up to the transducer to reproduce it?

post #243 of 467

Ya when I start boosting the bass it will distort...quite easily with some songs.  But cranking that bass will put a roar in my HFI 780's like no other player I own.  I typically takes an amp to get in the same neighborhood.  I can't seem to get much out of the mid range though.  Unless I'm missing something while I'm tweaking.  I have not yet found a good sweet spot in the mids.  Really almost no noticeable change.  Still can't figure out how to save an EQ preset.  Everything I try cancels it. 

post #244 of 467
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by eke2k6 View Post

 

How is it a limitation of the player? If you use EQ to boost a frequency, isn't it up to the transducer to reproduce it?

 

Not if the player cannot power the headphones sufficiently.

post #245 of 467
Quote:
Originally Posted by extrabigmehdi View Post

It doesn't necessarily distort, most of the time it sound muddy i.e  the headphone is not able of clean sub bass, so let's not try to boost it.

 

If you crank it up without precut, an EQ will distort.  If you have enough precut that it doesn't distort and the headphones themselves can't handle it, time for better headphones.  Nothing electronics can do about bad cans.    

post #246 of 467
Quote:
Originally Posted by saratoga View Post

 

If you crank it up without precut, an EQ will distort. 

 

Ah, you meant digital clipping. I  always leave a headroom while eq-ing.  With cowon I  guess they already take care of that, or I  never noticed the problem.

post #247 of 467

Ya, even with the Denon AH D2000 will clip if the precut is on 0db and you REALLY crank the bass.  I tried my PK2's and it no clipping a little bass boost made mince meat out of them.  The Earpods can handle much more low end.  

post #248 of 467
Thread Starter 

Sorry but whilst the clip+ is a good little DAP it is not exactly a powerhouse and saying that any lack of bass is the headphones and not the DAP is... well wrong..

 

The sound quality on it is good but bass and especially sub bass is not the strong point....

 

Every pair of headphones / IEM I have ever owned has sounded bass light on the Clip compared to a proper amp.

post #249 of 467
Quote:
Originally Posted by nonsupremous View Post

Ya, even with the Denon AH D2000 will clip if the precut is on 0db and you REALLY crank the bass. 

 

Clipped signal, is clipped signal regardless of the headphone.

post #250 of 467
Quote:
Originally Posted by nicholars View Post

Sorry but whilst the clip+ is a good little DAP it is not exactly a powerhouse and saying that any lack of bass is the headphones and not the DAP is... well wrong..

 

The sound quality on it is good but bass and especially sub bass is not the strong point....

 

Every pair of headphones / IEM I have ever owned has sounded bass light on the Clip compared to a proper amp.

 I'm not convinced by the saying, that amping should improve the bass, merely that a good source improve clarity overall.

My subjective impression with the sansa clip,  was that the extreme  highs were a bit recessed, but the bass was fine.

post #251 of 467
Quote:
Originally Posted by nonsupremous View Post

Ya, even with the Denon AH D2000 will clip if the precut is on 0db and you REALLY crank the bass.  I tried my PK2's and it no clipping a little bass boost made mince meat out of them.  The Earpods can handle much more low end.  

 

Clipping is a digital effect.  It has nothing to do with the headphones.  If you take a signal thats already at max and try to digitally increase it, you get clipping. Doesn't matter if you have headphones, an amp, or a toaster hooked up.  The signal will clip.


Thats what precut is for in an EQ, it lets you lower the overall gain enough that you have headroom to pump up certain frequency bands.  So if you want to add +3dB more bass, you must apply some precut (the exact amount is harder to calculate, but -3dB is a good estimate).

 

 

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by nicholars View Post

Sorry but whilst the clip+ is a good little DAP it is not exactly a powerhouse and saying that any lack of bass is the headphones and not the DAP is... well wrong..

 

 

This is a common misconception.  The amount of power a device can deliver into a given load actually does not in general say anything about how much bass it can drive.  To understand why, you need to know a little bit more about how an EQ and a headphone amp actually work.

 

First, the EQ.  Basically the combination of EQ + precut results in the selective attenuation of some frequencies relative to others.  Since you're adding at least enough precut to cancel out any gain, your EQ on average makes the signal a little more quiet.  So an EQ that "boosts" the bass frequencies actually leaves them more or less alone but cuts mids and higher frequencies.  The overall sound is then a little quieter, but you can compensate for this by just raising the volume (that is, applying analog gain to compensate for the digital attenuation - its analog so no clipping).

 

So once you realize that an EQ is basically just attenuating some frequencies, you can see where power comes into play:  it determines the maximum volume you can use from the amp.  In rockbox we try to make this clear by expressing volume in units of dB relative to peak.  So if you're listening at -10dB, you're listening at 10% of the amp's max power.  At -20 dB, you are at 1% of the amp's max.  So if you listen at -10dB in rockbox, and want to apply 4 dB of bass gain, you would precut -4dB (very roughly) and then raise the volume to -6dB.  The end result is that your bass is now 4dB louder then it was before, while your mids and highs haven't changed at all.  Thats the magic of a parametric EQ.

 

Of course, there is a downside:  you're now 4dB closer to the maximum volume level.  However in practice this isn't a huge issue, particularly with IEMs because you rarely use much of the amp's power due to how efficient they are. 

 

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by nicholars View Post

Every pair of headphones / IEM I have ever owned has sounded bass light on the Clip compared to a proper amp.

 

 

 

Not a problem.  The clip is a directly coupled, low impedance amp with very zero low frequency roll off or distortion.  This is precisely the scenario where an EQ will fix your problem, just be sure to use it correctly.  

post #252 of 467

Ya, I got that...I guess I stated that wrong.  It took almost the max EQ bass boost to get the Denon to clip.  I might try the toaster though.  =)

post #253 of 467
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by extrabigmehdi View Post

 I'm not convinced by the saying, that amping should improve the bass.

 

Riggghhhttt

post #254 of 467
Quote:
Originally Posted by extrabigmehdi View Post

 I'm not convinced by the saying, that amping should improve the bass, merely that a good source improve clarity overall.

My subjective impression with the sansa clip,  was that the extreme  highs were a bit recessed, but the bass was fine.

 

Amping makes a player louder, and the perception of bass increases with volume because human hearing is nonlinear with intensity.  For this reason, people will easily confuse a louder signal with one that has more bass, even if the bass remains flat.  

post #255 of 467
Thread Starter 

Hmmm from my experience bad / weak amping = boomy , flabby bass with less quantity as well.

 

Good amp = Tighter bass and more of it.

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